Feddit.org announced today that they are changing their rules to match German law despite their server not being hosted in Germany.
Feddit.org now bans:
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The sentence “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”
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Comparing Israel to the Nazis
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Calls to end Zionism
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Calling for the dissolution of Israel
And much more. The full original post can be found here, or
Click here for full text of original post:
Hi.
In the past few days, discontent regarding mod decisions in this community has been brewing, particularly when it comes to comments on Palestine, Israel, and Israeli politics and actions. There are also misunderstandings regarding mod intention and German law. We hope to clear that up with this post.
While the servers of feddit.org are in Austria, most of the mods of this community as well as admins of this server live in Germany. Speaking of, our server admins have also posted a write-up on the same topic.
And with that, let’s go:
In Germany, antisemitism is specifically sanctioned in German criminal law, both for speech and as a motivation for other criminal behavior. In addition, Germany seeks to protect the Jewish state of Israel (the so-called “Reason of State” introduced in 2008) and thus verges toward protecting Zionism as well. Certain criticism of Israel/Israelis is also categorized as “Israel-related antisemitism”.
Since criminal law is involved, enforcement can mean things like police raids and device confiscations. After such police action, it does not really matter if it was appropriate or if cases are dropped or never charged: The damage is done. All told, it’s not that fun.
There is also no point in engaging in discussions about the veracity of statements that could get us into legal trouble. In addition, we believe that you can express most opinions without breaking rules.
If your comment contains the following, it will be removed from this community:
- Calling for the dissolution of Israel, or calling for a one-state solution without specifying equal rights for all people; Jewish in particular.
- Calling for a destruction, annihilation, an end of all Zionism or the like.
- Equating Israeli actions and (historical) Nazism.
- The slogan “from the river…”
- Endorsement of or justifications for Hamas or Hezbollah, or slogans or graphics positively referring to these organizations. These are considered terrorist organizations in Germany.
- … and obviously: Any of the common antisemitic tropes or calls to violence against Jews or Israelis
Comments will not be removed for the following:
- Denouncing genocide.
- Denouncing Israeli war crimes.
- Criticizing Zionism as an ideology or political movement.
- Referring to the current Israeli government as “criminal,” “expansionist,” or “far-right”.
If your comment is removed nonetheless, these are not the reason. I’d also like to stress that this community was never a free-speech-absolutist zone: It is a (usually lightly) moderated community. There may also be times when bans go too far. In such cases, please DM the @EuroMod@feddit.org account (which all mods have access to).
To help you understand why, I'll leave an assortment of sources here (translations via DeepL).
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Berlin in mid-May [2024] around 6 o’clock in the morning. A loud, continuous “banging” against the apartment door wakes student Alina T. from her sleep. […] When her husband opens the door, several LKA officers, two employees of the district office and the SEK “storm” past him into the apartment. Puzzled, he looks at the search warrant. […] The background to this was a Facebook entry in the student’s profile: "From the river […]
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In November 2023, the Federal Ministry of the Interior and for Home Affairs also issued a prohibition order against Hamas.[60] According to the order, “the slogan ‘From the River to the Sea’ (in German or other languages)” is a distinguishing mark of Hamas[61]. […] the current legal situation [regarding “Denial of Israel’s right to exist”] is - contrary to what the statements of the Federal Ministry of Justice suggest[63] - anything but clear. Whether incitements to eliminate the State of Israel are prosecuted depends on the respective legal opinion and the prosecution will of the respective public prosecutor’s office.
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Press release from the previous government:
In this context, Section 111 StGB, which covers public incitement to commit crimes, may also be relevant. Incitement to extinguish Israel’s existence by force may be punishable under this provision. The same applies to calls to publicly display the Hamas flag. If Hamas attacks are publicly cheered and celebrated, this may also be punishable. This means that people who cheer on Hamas’s actions or publicly express their sympathy with the attacks may constitute the criminal offence of “approval of criminal acts” under Section 140 of the German Criminal Code (StGB).
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In connection with the controversial Palestine Congress in Berlin, the German authorities have also imposed an entry ban on former Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis. “In order to prevent antisemitic and anti-Israel propaganda at the event”, several entry bans have been issued, the news agency AFP learned from security sources on Sunday. One of these concerned Varoufakis. (Notably, Varoufakis would have spoken about one-state solutions …)
federal reverse (on behalf of the mods of !europe)
I think the post in itself is informational, many of the comments are not.
Post stays, comments get locked.
Germany looking 80 years in the past like “let’s do that again.”
Israel is NOT a Jewish state, it’s a Neo-Nazi regime. If I wanted to kill as many jews as possible, I’d convince them that they “belong” in a tiny country surrounded by neighbours who want to destroy them.
Gonna mention that !europe@lemmy.dbzer0.com has been set up as an alternative for Europe-centric discussions
I get their concerns but we shouldn’t be bullied into silence. The Israeli government is a piece of shit and we should all be allowed to say that until they’ve proven otherwise.
From the text of their original post it sounds like you’re still allowed to say that. It’s worth reading the post text itself (not saying that to change your stance, I have complicated feelings about this choice by them, but knowing what they’re actually saying is worthwhile)
You can do anything except demand things which could meaningfully resolve the issue.
People are not being allowed to call for the dissolution of the Israeli Apartheid government.
Or compare its genocidal deeds to those for which the Germans say “never again”.
Because “never again” in Germany does not count for brown people.
People are only allowed to voice slight discontent with Israel. Forcing people to call a major crime a minor crime is a massive form of repression in itself and it serves to downplay reality, while pretending there is no censorship.
Calling a state criminal, expantionist, genocidal, brutal, saying that they should answer for their crimes, give back palestinian territories immediatly, be boycotted by the whole world, even be subject to military intervention is still perfectly fine, and that’s clearly not “slight discontent”. If you were conscious of this, you message is huge bad faith.
What they do not allow is calling for the end of Israel, in any way. That’s indeed a major crackdown on freedom of expression, but it does not leave you wordless for Israel criticism, unless your only goal is to be against Israel, and you don’t care being alongside Palestine.
I’m sorry but how does any of that not fit into “calls to end Zionism”?
So, what, you can describe what they’re doing but can’t say you want it to stop?
Zionism does not necessarily include exclusion, theft from, violence against, even less so mass murdering and genocide of Palestinians.
From what i know, and correct me if im wrong, Zionism at its root is the ideology pushing for Jews to live in the territory of Palestine and have autodetermination there. Ofc, a lot of the derivative include what i mentioned above, but not all of them : you can think of a country where both Palestinians and Israeli live peacefully, and it would still fall under Zionism, from what my limited perspective lets me know.
Zionism does not necessarily include exclusion, theft from, violence against, even less so mass murdering and genocide of Palestinians.
It absolutely does.
genocidal
Comparing Israel or Germany supporting it to the Nazis is banned.
give back palestinian territories immediatly
This is banned. Do you not understand that all of Israel is on Palestinian land or are you not willing to understand it?
even be subject to military intervention
This is banned too. Every group doing this gets designated as a “terrorist” group.
Genocidal : again, genocide is NOT a nazi-only thing. And yes it’s bad to not be able to equate, yet alone compare Nazis and Israel government. But you can still say ‘Israel is genocidal’.
Palestinian territories : this is my bad, not an expert on the matter + did not think through. I meant territories destined to Palestinians in previous two-state solutions and at least recent territory annexion. From what the message says, you can still say that.
Military intervention : you can support the intervention without supporting people doing it. Also, you can support official interventions of other countries instead of guerrillas groups. The fact that most of those groups use terrorists methods, like targetting civilians (yes, those one that Israel and most states in the world also use) does not help with terrorism part, and i think we all agree that there should be no support for hamas or hezbollah directly, though they fight for objective we should defend. (and yes, Israel is doing worse for religious and racist reasons too, and they have a kind of immunity partly because of the anti-antisemitism rethoric partly because they are a state and states are rarely condemned for use of terrorist tactics, all of this is compatible).
Little brother didn’t know all of Palestine is within Israel.
Maybe learn a little bit more before making such confident statements about it.
My fault is not ignorance, it’s blatant stupidity because i knew it. It’s also part of israeli propaganda that i fell for to think of palestinian territories that way. That’s bad and im grateful for people pointing it out. I’ll try to think more next time.
The rest sill stands.
The title of this post is sensationalized, click-baitey, and factually incorrect according to the posted text. It’s as if OP either didn’t read the text they copy/pasted or they are trying to intentionally stir up shit…
50% of the post here are. Echo chambers rely on most users never reading the article.
Nothing in the post is incorrect or sensationalized. You did not read it.
“they will ban criticism of Israel” : they will only ban calls for end of Israel and equating Nazis and Israel. You can still criticize Israel. Its like saying “They ban fruits” when they only ban oranges. It’s still a problem, but you’re making it larger than it seems, that’s on the path of clickbait/sensationalism (i do not think that this was intended of you though, it’s just what comes out of the way you wrote it).
Apartheid South Africa needs to be dissolved.
Israel needs to be dissolved.
What is the difference between these two sentences and why is one of them banned on feddit.org?
As you explained in your post, because of some bullshit german law and admin decision. It’s bad. We agree on this.
Your title should still be ‘bans calls for end of Israel and calling Israel nazis’ or at the very least ‘bans some criticism of Israel’.
It is because their admins are in Germany and they fear the extreme repercussion that the German State has done recently. Did you even read the post you pasted? Are are you intentionally trying to stir up drama?
Not everyone lives in safety these days. Fascism has made it hard to do things like host a volunteer run online forum safely. There are cases where the heavily armed anti-terrorism unit SEK search peoples houses at gun point for this. Do you think online moderators should be required to catch a bullet for your posts?
You don’t solve fascism by bowing down. But of course one can wait for another population to solve it for them.
Just curious, who do you accuse of fascism?
It amuses me that expressing understanding with the retaliation is forbidden. I definitely understand why a militant extremist group has arisen after decades of oppression and genocide.
Like, how do you negotiate your way out of that peacefully? Where in history has oppression on that level been defeated through diplomacy?
I seem to have forgotten the part where the allies defeated Nazi Germany by asking nicely. Surely no war was fought for recognising black people as humans in the U.S.
Perhaps Ukraine should put down their weapons and ask Russia to pretty please stop invading their country and killing their people.
Ugh.
This one here, right?
Endorsement of or justifications for Hamas or Hezbollah, or slogans or graphics positively referring to these organizations. These are considered terrorist organizations in Germany.
I don’t think expressing understanding is either endorsement or justification. So as written, it should be fine, but since it comes down to the mods interpretation, who knows what the outcome would actually be.
germany making laws suppressing speech and criminalising free thought? never seen that before
EU is not America. Free speech has limits, that’s why we don’t end up with people like Trump
Hungary would like a word
Saint Babyrescuer compared to trump
And Germany is not all of EU.
i was referring to germany in the 30s and 40s… but yeah, look at the governments of italy and hungary (and previously poland)
Despite all the culture of remembrance, despite all the memorials and despite all the history lessons, the general public is simply not aware of how efficiently, ruthlessly and industrially the Nazis carried out the Holocaust.
At its peak, in Operation Reinhard, from April to November 1942, 2.5 million Jews were murdered. 10,000 every day. In specially built camps to which people were transported by rail and sent directly to the gas chambers, where there was practically no chance of survival. In Majdanek, over 18,000 people were murdered in 9 hours. By 1945, two thirds of European Jews had been murdered and in the end only the advance of the Allies prevented the rest from being murdered as well.
This is the much-vaunted singularity of the Holocaust, namely the systematic, industrial murder in special murder factories. This industrial rate of murder is unique in the long history of genocides. Stalin’s camps were cruel, but they were not extermination camps with gas chambers. This also applies to other genocides.
So if you honestly compare the Gaza War with the Holocaust, you quickly realize that it is something completely different. And anyone who seriously equates the two is trivializing the Holocaust to an extent that almost borders on Holocaust denial. This is guaranteed to lead someone here to call me a “genocide denier”, but: if Israel acted like the Nazis in the Gaza Strip, all the women and children would be dead by now and a few last surviving men would be maltreated to death as work slaves. And yes, we all know why Israel of all places is constantly compared to the Holocaust, even though there is no factual basis.
*automatically translated from a feddit.org user I very much agree with. Not citing the account to not disclose them to save them from brigading.
Saying “the Israeli government is acting like Nazis” is not the same thing as saying that “the current genocide being perpertrated against the Palestinians is equivalent to the Holocaust”. The former sentence can be true regardless of the truth or falsity of the latter sentence.
While I think calling the Israeli government “Nazis” is a simplification and kind of weakens the meaning of the word Nazi, I absolutely agree with you.
Fair enough. People also use the term for e.g. american fascists. I think it would be reasonable these days treat the word as if it has two meanings, one historical, and one a more general synonym for “fascist”.
When somebody calls it the “Gaza WAR”, they are a Zionist and support the genocide in Gaza.
I got banned from that community for saying zionism is antisemitic. The mods called it “rage bait”.
I was actually testing whether the mods are zionists, and since they were enraged by my post, I think they are.
literally ragebaits Gets banned for ragebaiting Mods are zionists
Lmao
I bet they think they’re just “following orders” like their forefathers…
Just FYI. There’s truth to this, but this post headline is very clickbait.
You’re still allowed to do things like call out the genocide, call the Israeli government facist etc.
What you can’t do is stuff like call for a violent overthrow of the state of Israel.
(Which I disagree with because since the status quo is violence I think violence is justified in overturning it)
But anyways. It’s less extreme than the headline suggests.
And also it’s in an effort to comply with German laws. (Which again, I disagree with, but I’m not the one at risk of getting raided here so yeah).
Banning the call to dissolve the genocidal Israeli Apartheid would be akin to saying you can disagree with Donald Trump, but you are not allowed to say that he should be impeached.
Germans are not allowing the problem nor the solution to be named. Thus they live in a vague haze where both sides are guilty and there is seemingly no solution possible except the full genocide of all Palestinians.
Not being able to criticize leaders that the International Criminal Court has issued arrest warrants against is bonkers and simple censorship.EDIT: After reading the official announcement thoroughly, I have to say the title seems… wrong? There are very specific things that are not allowed, some of which I can agree with. Others however, I do not.
You are allowed to criticise the leaders of israel, its not banned.
I read it more carefully and you are right. The title is actually wrong as I have mentioned in the edit. Thank you anyway.
Can we, as users, prevent our own posts and comments from federating to a given server?
They’re not banning me for my accusations of genocide; I’m Banning Them
[…]
HRF lawyers and online activists trawl through mountains of images and videos submitted to them online to verify and geolocate each one, check its metadata and verify its chain of custody, from the soldier filming it through to HRF, Abou Jahjah explained.
Where the perpetrator is a dual national, HRF seeks prosecution under the second country’s existing laws on war crimes and in the case of sole Israeli citizens, collate legal files, which are then filed as evidence with the International Criminal Court (ICC).
Abou Jahjah has also been personally threatened by Israeli Minister of Diaspora Affairs Amichai Chikli, who – alluding to the attacks on Hezbollah’s members’ communication systems in September 2024 – told him to “watch your pager”.
