Remember when the Afghan people had a phenomenally well equipped and well trained army, and then they just gave up inside a week because things were “hard”?
Like if you don’t give a shit…no one is going to give a harder shit about you than you will.
Yeah man, I feel sorry for the people who will have to live under the fucking Taliban, but we’ve spent way too much time, money and blood on Afghanistan already.
We shouldn’t have been there in the first place, but for them to just instantly roll over to the Taliban… Just compare it to Ukraine, where they are fighting for their lives and freedom against a much more powerful enemy.
It’s long past time for Afghanistan to deal with their own problems.
Yeah, like what do they expect? Another foreign military intervention?
That will not happen again for decades at best. Longer if all the developed nations really learn from America’s mistake this time.
Sure, we can sanction them, but any aid just gets intercepted, so that’s out. It sucks so many Afghans are suffering under the system, but it’s the system they let happen. Did they want to be an occupied country forever? Was this a fight America was expected to wage indefinitely? Twenty years was already too long.
Tbf Afghanistan defeated a much stronger Russia back in the 80s.
With less help than Ukraine gets.
Edit: so the downvotes are just ignorant of history or are they trying to rewrite it to suit their own agendas? Regardless, not a good sign for the future.
The downvotes are probably because you seem to ‘ignore’ the US role in arming the Taliban.
See below. This was addressed yesterday.
deleted by creator
I wonder if it was “hard” or “I want the Taliban to take over.” There’s probably a decent amount of people in that area that can fundamentally agree with the Taliban. it’s a religious and oppression group. If you’re ideologically aligned with the Taliban, and male, you’re probably either as good or better of under them.
Not saying this is everything but I imagine there’s at least some people who are ok with the new government, mostly because they don’t care about others over their own self.
First of all, none of these women were in that army so painting this as the consequences of their actions seems a bit dishonest.
Second, I remember when they were alleged to have a phenomenal army but it turned out most of that was on paper not real.
The facade crumbled.
I wonder how things would have turned out if the US had built up divisions of the Afghan army with women.
Remember that the government is installed by the US and allies. If they actually care, the could have spent some time to find candidates that can gather people around and build a unionized front along with education and infrastructure. The reality is they put a thief in power who is now living somewhere in Europe and enjoying his wealth.
Blaming a victim complaining about their experience or at least expectations is in bad taste.
The Afghan army seemed totally incompetent. Examples:
The ANA never had very good moral, just read the experiences of US troops with them.
Remember when the Afghan people had a phenomenally well equipped and well trained army, and then they just gave up inside a week because things were “hard”?
You didn’t read the Afghanistan Papers did you?
I’d have more sympathy for the people of Afghanistan if they had actually fought back against the Taliban.
People say that America lost in Afghanistan, but we were basically the only thing propping up democracy. The people themselves made no effort.
Lots of people made effort but I think you’d be accurate in saying that a large population were more readily willing to go back to the Taliban than those who opposed them vehemently.
Nah, they didn’t make an effort. The Taliban was welcomed when they rolled in. The US military expected there would be resistance, but the Taliban had pretty much captured everything before we were even gone.
Outside of Kabul it seemed the average rural person felt that they had to choose between a temporary US occupation supporting an uninterested government vs the Taliban who were all around them on a daily basis and would take over the second the US left. They did the safe thing and sided with the Taliban.
We spent twenty years fighting their battles for them, $2.3 trillion spent helping build up their infrastructure, supplying them with weapons and training, and trying to help them build a legitimate democratic government. After all our efforts, expenses, and American lives lost, it took the Taliban just ten days to retake the entire country. Freedom can’t be given it has to be won, and frankly they weren’t willing to fight for theirs… and I say this as a disabled combat veteran who lost dozens of friends to this conflict either in combat or to their own hands once they returned home. What a waste.
To be fair Russia, the UK and the US also took turns totaly destroying the country for the better part of the last century. We can’t give them their freedom back on a plate but we shouldn’t forget that we’re also the ones that took it away. That money and those lives weren’t some kind of gift they were an attempt to undo the collective damage we’ve done. Well the American/British money and lives, pretty sure Russia didn’t give a crap.
You can go back to Alexander the Great. Mountainous regions have always been notoriously hard to control with other regions like the Caucasus and the Balkans as examples. They tend to be fragmented and loosely connected.
Wow I’m american and this is some american kool aide if I’ve ever seen it. The Taliban is evil but the framing of the invasion and occupation as some noble humanitarian effort is like newsmax propaganda.
Some good things did happen. More girls went to schools. You can look up data and see the infant mortality rate plummet.
We didn’t go over there for humanitarian reasons, and our true goal wasn’t noble – but there was still good that came of it. Enough good for them to ask us why we’ve forgotten about them. And I don’t blame them – but I also can’t blame us.
I agree, the hard truth is it’s on them. The people of Afghanistan collectively lacked the will to fight for their freedom. It’s a stark contrast with places like Ukraine.
O fuck off. You invaded them and then left. 2.3 trillion went to pay your military and contractors.
“You should’ve extended the war by a few more decades!”
We built schools and got girls into the schools. The first thing the Taliban did was close all of those schools.
Who’s We, why We went there in the first place and on what grounds?
We went there because the Taliban didn’t want to kick Al Qaeda out and 9-11 had just happened.
You aren’t forgotten. US and allies accepted the decision that was made within a week of us leaving. The country, as a whole, collectively chose the easy route of Taliban rule. That decision has consequences.
deleted by creator
They’re not saying the withdrawal was quick, they’re saying the takeover after the withdrawal was quick. Which it was, Pentagon officials said it was faster than all their estimates.
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/08/16/how-afghanistan-fell-to-the-taliban-so-quickly.html
The gov had poor control over the countryside and the Taliban had infiltrated everywhere and was just laying in wait. The irony is they are now fighting another, even more extreme Islamic group, Al Qaeda.
deleted by creator
Exclude the actual government of the country from negotiations, and then wonder why they stand by and watch when you pull out, and your enemy storms the gates…
The feeling there was…
- The gov didn’t care about anyone outside of Kabul.
- They knew the US wouldn’t be there forever and the ANA had shitty moral. The Taliban however would be there when the US left and people didn’t want to be targeted for revenge killings, etc.
20-year boondoggle, you know… The easy route…
IDK exactly what the “world” can do here. The Taliban is the legit government of Afghanistan now (well, maybe legit should be in quotes). Do people want another war to take out the Taliban? That didn’t go so well the first time. And there are already sanctions on the Taliban’s government but other countries are still willing to trade with them.
I don’t see any international fix working here. There needs to be internal change. Whether that’s reform, coup, or whatever.
I hate it when you see the media (e.g. the BBC) going on about the latest awful government somewhere or some nation falling apart. The implication of course is they want someone to march in and save it, of course this means using force because the people there who are the problem aren’t going to leave willingly. So then you end up with a war and all the things that go with war (our guys dying, civilians get killed, accidents, etc) and then the media comes back and says how awful this war is, how civilians are getting killed, how things aren’t much better, etc.
There was an attempt at nation building and it didn’t go well. Afghanistan and the Middle East is a culturally complicated place, it’s mostly tribes and smaller villages with a lot of history. It’s hard to point fingers at the US for leaving when a decent chunk of the country either didn’t care, or didn’t want them there anymore.
I mean, literally any other country in the world is welcome to step in and fix it. Imagine the bragging rights at the next UN summit. “We fixed Afghanistan!” No? No takers? Alright.
As cynical as a take as that is, yeah national building hard espically out there. People will resist change, you have very little infrastructure to work with, and a poor little esucation population
The second part sounds a bit like a copout. They have done military interventions in a lot of different regions. The US has ransacked a growing number of countries just to get rid of a small amount of “baddies”.
You don’t get to destroy shit and leave. If you play world police, start doing the whole job, not parts of it. And I’m totally fine with US starting less interventions because they don’t wanna clean up after themselves. Probably a net positive given the history in the middle east.
The thing is, we weren’t there for a decade just destroying things. A few years, absolutely. But the rest of the time was spent trying to clean up and rebuild. Maybe the US just isn’t good at that, but what else can we do at this point? Returning would just be meddling again and earn ire.
Rebuilding translates to funding the lavish lifestyles of our puppets. Very colonial.
The proper noun Middle East needs work.
Thank you
Can’t believe the victim blaming going on in this thread. What the fuck? You people can’t understand that ordinary people didn’t want to rise up and risk their lives? They weren’t asking for help from citizens of other countries like them, they were asking for help from other militaries since their own failed them. Yet, the people are to blame? How is that a popular opinion? The complete lack of empathy from the privileged is alarming.
It’s kind of similar to Russia right now; in order for the country to change - and it NEEDS to change - ordinary people would need to take drastic action. The USA in Afghanistan kind of demonstrates just how incredibly hard it is for even an ultra-powerful external force to do that.
Heck, look at formerly-Nazi Germany. It’s now a stupendous place to live, but look at what needed to get it there. In addition to multiple countries toppling the regime, they needed Germans to be active about their beliefs in the future of their nation, to the point they were willing to literally dismantle a wall.
I don’t claim to be able to give them a guidebook, but I definitely think when the Taliban does fall, it would have to come at least from heavy, confrontational, violent rejection of them from the locals.
I think this is a situation where there just aren’t good answers. I prefer to draw a distinction between the politicians and cowards who handed the keys to the Taliban, vs the women and men and everyday people who opposed the Taliban.
It’s unfair and gross to blame them. It’s also unfair though for them to blame us. We spent a lot of time in Afghanistan. American blood watered the soil, but we saw beautiful flowers bloom. Women were uplifted. The infant mortality rate plummeted. People voted for their leaders.
What more could we do, at this point? I’d like to think that if we had armed more of the uplifted people, they would’ve maintained their government and continued to fight the Taliban. I tell myself that partially though because if that isn’t true, then there truly was nothing different we could’ve done or do now. We’d have to annex territory into a state, maybe.
Other militaries DID go in and pushed out the Taliban and you know what happened? The people, especially in the rural areas, were indifferent at best and frequently hostile. They didn’t ask for anyone to “help them”, even if they politely accepted it but they still saw them as outsiders vs the Taliban who were at least from there. They also knew the US and others weren’t going to be there forever and the day would eventually come when they’d leave and then what? The Taliban would be there to fill the void. The moral in the ANA was crap so they weren’t going to stop them. So the people kept on the best terms with both sides best they could and tried not to piss off the Taliban so they wouldn’t take revenge when they returned.
Yeah I hate that and am surprised to see that on lemmy
Reading those comments gives feelings of wtf
Gotta love all the 'muricans trying to defend their exceptionalism and blaming Afghanistan and its people for the country’s woes.
USA never cared about Afghanistan or its people. In the 1980s, it, along with Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and United Kingdom, helped fund the muhajideen fighting against the Soviet Union (Soviet-Afghan war). As soon as the war was over and the soviets retreated, the funding dried up.
After 9/11, USA went into a bloodlust, invading Afghanistan because they (Taliban) wanted proof that Osama bin Laden was involved with the terrorist attack first. bin Laden fled to Pakistan, but the USA didn’t invade them, nor threatened to. Instead, USA just kept their boots on foreign soil because, hey, free real state and cheap poppy, amirite?
Also, since at least 2010, it’s been publicly known that Pakistan has been helping the Taliban in fighting for Afghanistan. Yet, there were no sanctions, no tough talks, no threats, nothing, against Pakistan.
After 9/11, USA went into a bloodlust, invading Afghanistan because they (Taliban) wanted proof that Osama bin Laden was involved with the terrorist attack first. bin Laden fled to Pakistan, but the USA didn’t invade them, nor threatened to. Instead, USA just kept their boots on foreign soil because, hey, free real state and cheap poppy, amirite?
Just to add to your point.
What do you think should happen going forward? How should the US address this? How should your country, and the rest of the UN address this?
It’s very easy to look at the past and just lay blame. I can’t and won’t argue with you on any of that (except the Mujahideen but I’ve discussed that in a different comment). Looking forward however, I don’t see any paths that aren’t just a retread of what was already done. And I don’t know if we could’ve done anything differently which would have a good chance of leading to a different outcome. I legitimately want to know what you think, because I’m at a loss.
Considering that some tribes still remembered and resented the British from their colonial abuses, you can bet your ass Afghanis won’t forgive the USA anytime soon. If any president actually had the balls and humility to admit the USA fucked up big time, committed an international crime and several war crimes, and was actually willing to work together with the current government, under certain conditions, like ensuring women regain some of their lost rights, to repair some of those wrongs, that would go a long way. It’s not going to happen, and my guess is mainly because many other countries would start to pester the USA to admit wrongdoings against them, too.
It’s very easy to look at the past and just lay blame
The irony is that USA apparently didn’t learn anything from invading Vietnam, or watching the soviets invade Afghanistan 20 years prior.
As for what I think, apparently Pakistan and Iran will step in and work as “good neighbors”. Women will still be treated like slaves and neither neighbor will bat an eye, which is horrible. If the Taliban is still being so heavily helped by the Pakistani government, then Afghanistan will just be their puppet. In that case, pressuring Pakistan to pressure the Taliban into being less radical would be more likely to yield results with lower resistance. Considering that the USA never hinted at strong arming Pakistan, despite having several bases on their territory AND knowing of their ties with Taliban, then that is unlikely to happen in the future. The “why” for that is what I’d love to know.
It’s also rather weird when you look at Iran-Pakistan relations, which seem to be very good, despite one being a USA bogeyman and the other being an ally.
I’m not sure what people want, exactly. 20 years of occupation wasn’t enough to change their culture even a little bit. Do they want permanent American occupation? That’s clearly untenable for many reasons. I don’t want America to be the world police, and I don’t want them invading countries on moral grounds.
Any aid given to Afghanistan immediately ends up in the hands of the Taliban now.
I’m not sure what people want, exactly. 20 years of occupation wasn’t enough to change their culture even a little bit.
And yet the linked story above tells you about people whose lived were changed for the better during the fall of the Taliban. What you’re trying to say is that not enough people were willing to fight to oppose the Taliban to continue living this way of life. Maybe they don’t want to be murdered. Maybe there’s not a strong enough resistance force to oppose them but it doesn’t mean there isn’t opposition to the Taliban.
It’s like saying when Franco conquered Spain in 1936 that everyone wanted fascism.
It was mainly women’s lives that were improved without the Taliban, and sadly those aren’t important enough.
Might as well annex Afghanistan and make them a state of the Union, then some changes could happen.
Damn, a lot of “Fuck Afghanistan, hoo rah America is great” kinda vibes in here :-/ I left Reddit to get away from the constant USA Defaultsm nonsense…
Yes, let’s ignore the most important issue - people are suffering and as decent humans we have a duty to them, when we can instead use it as an excuse to point out how much better Americans are at being a country, etc etc :-(
My impression of reddit was the opposite. Lots of people who have never set foot outside of their town saying America was the worst place on earth.
Honestly fuck that? USA, it’s intentions mixed as they were, at least tried to help - and that’s a country that already had experience in influencing growth and change in other countries. I can’t really see other options for them.
Yeah, they are in a bad place but please let’s not forget that they actually worked to be in that place. So screw that, my heart goes to them but they’re lost case for now, until they are ready to fight for themselves.
deleted by creator
If you look at infant mortality rates, one thing we can at least take a shred of pride in is how they fell during the US occupation.
I left Reddit to get away from the constant USA Defaultsm nonsense…
This is possibly the most delusional take in the entire thread. If you thought that reddit, where people take every opportunity to shit on America somehow has constant “USA Defaultism”. You have to be a Stalin worshipping commie to even begin thinking that.
Yeah I read that and was rather surprised, it felt like it was the opposite. And I wasn’t in rah rah murica subs, this was in the large default ones.
How can most people help and as a follow up how can we help them and not the Taliban
When externals were (unsuccesfully) trying to change something in the country, it was a total bust. I read in these comments that intentions were not pure from America, and I can imagine that. I also saw interviews with US military personal after they came back from Afghanistan, who seemed to genuinely want to help, but had to deal with a lot of corruption, low education, internal theft and child abuse (Bachi Bazi). Now no one is helping, and even though I’d like for the local population to live free lives, I don’t even know how one would start to help. The Taliban will just hide and guerilla it’s way back after occupation has dissapated. It seems like a real life Kobayashi Maru situation. No winners, only losers here :(
It reminds me, I read about veterans who went to volunteer and fight for Ukraine because they wanted to help, and they felt like they hadn’t in Afghanistan.
The world spent trillions of dollars and thousands of lives to help you. It didn’t take.
Yep didn’t we remove their horrid government, hold elections, try to support a more liberal government through multiple decades in the longest war the US has ever engaged in?
And wasn’t that a massive overreach of our role in the first place?
I feel for these women but this headline can go get fucked.
Not to be a dick but if they don’t like it they could do something about it themselves. Hoping that “the world will do something” rarely has good results.
Yeah haven’t they been at war or occupied for like 200 years? The withdrawal was a clusterfuck but it was never not going to be one. Idk what the rest of the world can do at this point. I read China wants to tap into those sweet lithium mines. Let them give it a shot I guess?
Honestly, I’d love to see them try. Mostly because it’d be hilarious for them to be inconvenienced, but still
Putting aside the humanitarian aspect and destabilizing the region etc etc I agree it would be an entertaining show. From what I’ve heard maybe we won’t have to wait very long.
Not to be a dick but if they don’t like it they could do something about it themselves
It’s 1933 and the Nazis have taken power. You don’t like it so you say something. Ooops, now you have a bullet in your brain.
deleted by creator
The resources you’re referring to during the first decade were not used for “fiddling”, but well-spent on capturing and killing bin Laden and negating the threat of al-Qaeda. The occupation of Afghanistan following the raid on bin-Laden continued to be costly without reaping similar tangible rewards and that’s all the more reason for the US to subsequently withdraw from Afghanistan.
The US didn’t “lose Afghanistan”, they stopped pouring resources and lives into a very costly and difficult occupation without significant local support that didn’t make any sense or reap any benefit after achieving their stated goals of capturing and killing bin laden and dismantling al-Qaeda.
Nobody has forgotten Afghanistan, there just isn’t a foreign power actively occupying and policing their country anymore.
deleted by creator
If you believe that the war was one man’s and not the nation’s, then the US obviously didn’t lose any war according to your definition.
You’re making broad political assumptions based on the physical appearance of George Bush, which is not a very convincing argument.
You allege bush had “intel”, that he didn’t listen to anybody, and he felt he had all the answers, but you aren’t providing a thesis, evidence, context, examples, or drawing any conclusions from these assumptions. You’re just complaining about assumptions you made up.
Saying “all we had to do was go to Pakistan, and we would’ve gotten Osama a lot earlier” is probably the least-sensical assumption you’re making.
That was the whole point of finding him, his whereabouts were unknown.
You might as well get angry at homicide detectives for finding killers. “Gee, you know if you just went straight to the murderer:s house that you didn’t know the location of, you would have arrested him much sooner. Don’t know why you bothered with all those clues and evidence for years and didn’t just meet him at his hiding spot right away.”
They had to find bin laden before they knew where he was. Bin laden was in something like a half dozen different safe houses in an area of the size of Texas, supported and protected by a terrorist organization spread across more than two countries that by themselves added up to the size of Mexico, and most of the hijackers of the 9/11 attack were from Saudi Arabia.
Afghanistan is full of a bunch of small tribes. They all hate each other and refuse to work together. Just go Google “dancing boy parties Afghanistan” you will quickly lose any sympathy for the people and culture. The US had to turn a blind eye to pedophile parties, which are a time honored tradition, in order to keep the peace.
The forces the US trained and equipped were basically the dregs of society that would be in prison in most countries. They would steal and sell shit to the Taliban. Claiming to have driven many miles on patrol to syphon and sell the gas was common practice. They sold the guns and trucks. There is no helping this country. It’s going to be a shit show until they get past their tribal hatred and work together.
quickly lose any sympathy for the people and culture
Just as easily as when I Google “Americans with guns”
Fuck me for wanting one as a trans person, amirite?
