Depends on the situation. I have an uncle who is, for his generation (boomer), fairly progressive-minded.
For years, he repeated that his favorite book was “The Education of Little Tree” which was published in 76, and to my understanding takes a pretty irreverent and sometimes satirical stance on much of society’s generally accepted social norms and formal institutions. It has an environmentalist tone and is critical of the prejudice that the indigenous protagonist faces.
The weird part is that the author, “Forrest Carter,” was actually Asa Earl Carter who was formerly a prominent Klan member and speech writer for George Wallace, one of the premiere racist ghoul politicians of the American South. Ever heard the speech that goes “segregation now, segregation tomorrow, and segregation forever”? Yeah, that’s a George Wallace speech that was written by Carter. It’s been known that they’re the same guy since the early 90’s, but my uncle still wasn’t aware of it in the 2010’s.
My Uncle’s a pretty reasonable guy and he’s capable of critical thinking. I don’t know why Carter went on to write a book that was critical of prejudice after spending his early life being super fucking turbo-racist, but the guy’s long dead and while it certainly recontextualizes his anti-prejudice work, it’s not like you can’t still like his books. When I shared the info with my uncle about Carter’s identity, I expected him to take it much the way I did like “Well that’s pretty weird. Wonder what the hell happened to have made the same man write such different things in his life. Sucks he was a racist,” but instead it really seemed like he took it personally. He got really defensive about something that has literally been settled fact since the 90s, suggesting it was all lies even though I was showing him the Wikipedia page for Carter. I even heard him mutter something under his breath after the conversation which is waaay more petty than I’ve ever seen him act.
If I don’t think the person I’m talking to is capable of critical thought and nuance, I’ll keep things like that to myself, but my uncle and I have had tons of interesting conversations. In my head this was just another one of those. It’s not like I was accusing my uncle of being racist. After all, he had no idea. I thought I was just sharing a bizarre detail about an author he liked.
I don’t know why Carter went on to write a book that was critical of prejudice after spending his early life being super fucking turbo-racist
Maybe he came across some dignity later in life? People are always changing and that’s something we should all be respecting.
Yeah, my thoughts. Cancel culture makes people forget this. Not everyone is a mini hitler (i.e won’t change)
I almost suggested that, but the story goes that the reason he chose “Forrest” as a pseudonym when writing the book was because of Nathan Bedford Forrest, founder of the Klan. People contain multitudes. I can’t claim to know why he did what he did, but nothing I’ve read about the man (admittedly little) indicates that he was sorry for what he’d done. Ashamed perhaps, but even that I’m just guessing based on the fact that he tried changing his identity and denied being Asa Carter.
I have definitely mentioned Marion Zimmer Bradley when her books get recommended. So yes? But also I feel like dead artists is when you really can attempt to separate the art from the artists (in the case of MZB I’ve heard there’s weird/questionable passages in the books, so can you really?)
I shut my mouth. Living in the modern world, that might be the last stale nugget of joy they have left.
If we’re talking MJ. Tell them.
We’re not (i was thinking of madonna), but speaking of MJ:
I’m so annoyed that internet discussion seemed to go back and forth on whether his interactions with kids were wrong, before finally settling on the conclusion they were, in the wake of Epstein + the MJ movie being released. People would make up very elaborate explanations for why he was having kids over and why it was okay, and you’d get absolutely piled on for not supporting that explanation.
For me personally my mom already told me he was bad before i started using the internet, so I’ve probably gone through more gaslighting with MJ than over any other issue - kids i went to school with were arguing with me over it at like 9 years old. I didn’t know the full reason yet.
Just such a clear issue
You seem to have followed that topic far more than me. So I’d like to state what I objectively understood from the mj case and then ask you. Please do not feel offended, I never like people being idolized but also not their image being damaged with accusations.
That being said, from what I understood he had a lot of kids around him which is at least unusual in any case but there was no objective proof for sexual abuse.
So my honest question: had this been proven? This was such a hot topic that it was impossible for me to follow the facts. (of course in a possible connection with Epstein - which I knew nothing about then - it might seem obvious now)
Thanks.
It’s fine, i’m not here to start arguments.
Here are some sources
- ABC, 2003: “inside MJ’s Odd World.” https://abcnews.com/2020/story?id=123607&page=1 This is the top result if you search about it and probaboy all you need to read. But i’ll return to this comment with more sources, i need to post to make sure i don’t lose what i typed below.
- Guardian, 2003 : “MJ still lets kids sleep in his bed” MJ actually had to settle out of court to get a molestation lawsuit to disappear, as this article mentions https://www.theguardian.com/media/2003/feb/04/broadcasting.michaeljacksontrial
So to answer your questions:
- Yes it’s proven that MJ invited kids over for sleepovers.
- It was so well known that he did this that the media was reporting on it frequently and he went to court for it -~~ presumably it wasn’t proven that he molested them because AFAIK he never went to jail or anything. ~~
- But as you said, the issue is that he shouldn’t have been creating those situations in the first place, because:
- 1), it’s creepy enough ny default,
-
- kids shouldn’t be taken away from trusted adults fo stay over with celebrities,
-
- MJ is aware thst this is wring and puts him in a highkply precarious legal position.
You’d therefore assume that he was doing this in the hopes thst he might one day get away with mokesting a child, or that he wss doing it as the first part of grooming them to become his close friends and from there who knows.
It’s a dereliction of “responsibility” as a celebrity and as an adult to essentially provide access to yourself as a visitor attraction for kids. Public meetings with fans (conventions, signings, concerts) and answering fan mail is fine.
I’m surprised it didn’t go worse. I do like his music though and i appreciate he had a poor childhood himself which contributes to making these poor judgements.
(I believe MJ comes up in Epsteins Emails, either because epstein celebrates him, or because he’s a visitor to the island. Probably the former, there’s not much outcry about it. I’ll look for a source for that.)
But still, thst does not sound as if it’s proven he molested them. And if he did, he should rot in hell of course.
I’m just still not sure that he wasn’t as naive innocent as he seemed. I really hate this.
Girlfriend loves Taylor Swift, music news whatever. It makes her happy, it’s all I want for her, so yea, I just let her have that
Edit…oh deceased woops
