Several service members told advocacy groups they felt like pawns in a political game and assignment was unnecessary
California national guards troops and marines deployed to Los Angeles to help restore order after days of protest against the Trump administration have told friends and family members they are deeply unhappy about the assignment and worry their only meaningful role will be as pawns in a political battle they do not want to join.
Three different advocacy organisations representing military families said they had heard from dozens of affected service members who expressed discomfort about being drawn into a domestic policing operation outside their normal field of operations. The groups said they have heard no countervailing opinions.
“The sentiment across the board right now is that deploying military force against our own communities isn’t the kind of national security we signed up for,” said Sarah Streyder of the Secure Families Initiative, which represents the interests of military spouses, children and veterans.
this is a good thing to hear
Similar when they were doing border patrol in Texas.
Military training is kinda big on threat identification and assessment. You don’t have to like the military to appreciate some of the stuff you can learn from it.
Protesting is not a threat to America. It’s a threat to the people who are in charge.
That’s why it’s essential we keep it peaceful while we increase our numbers. If we are non-violent, we cannot be determined to be a domestic threat, and it’s the military’s duty to protect us.
If we are non-violent, TACO will just say “They’re violent!” and a majority of this country, including our military, will believe him. Things can only go downhill from here.
Arm yourselves.
And if we’re still non-violent, someone will join who isn’t and ensure some violence exists. It’s Plan 1A in the dictator playbook.
Yup, that too. There is no happy ending.
It’s not the military’s duty to protect protestors. Just as the police have no obligation to protect and serve citizens.
I wholeheartedly agree with regards to the cops and ICE.
But I actually completely disagree on that statement being applied to the NG and Marines.
I’d argue that the armed forced have a rather explicit duty to protect their own fellow citizens as best they can.
And if some dipshit commander orders the marines or CANG to actually open fire on US civilians, I really do think that the E4 mafia might have something to say about that, and that the commissioned officers and cops and ICE fascists might very quickly find themselves staring down the barrels of the deployed troops.
Put another way: if active duty troops are ordered to fire on unarmed protesters, I would not at all be shocked if the enlisted and noncoms refuse the orders and mutiny, up to and including fragging the officers who gave the orders if they keep pushing.
Orangeboi et al seem to think the troops are robots. They’re absolutely not.
I really hope you’re right
One way or another, I feel like we’re all gonna see the answer to that question before this bullshit settles down in any meaningful way
Police rules of engagement is shockingly 0, cops kill anyone for any reason if they perceive even the slightest chance of a threat to themselves. The military has a rigorous 5-6 steps for using increasing amounts of violence from shouting to actually firing.
Maybe they can identify the actual threat and neutralize him.
You means the person(s) funding all of this?
/s
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Then the American populace will forget all about how they raided your country, move on to the next one while moralizing to the colonized. Or like what’s happening now, they’ll lecture everyone about genocide and invading countries, won’t realizing the hypocrisy.
Well, they haven’t made a movie about how the Philly police got depressed after they bombed their own city yet.
deploying military force against our own communities isn’t the kind of national security we signed up for
Then refuse those illegal orders and stand down.
In what ways are you able and going to support troops who do that to then face court martial? Are you a lawyer willing to go pro bono? Are you willing to house the ones who are discharged, or later released from prison, with few to no job prospects? Do you already or are you planning to donate to service member advocacy groups?
If troops could feel sufficiently supported by the rest of the community when the military’s judicial hammer hangs above their head, it may help them gather the courage to do the thing you’re suggesting they do.
Most troops signed up to do a job with good benefits and gud-nuff pay and hopefully learn some skills, make lifelong friends, and maybe do some interesting or adventurous things in the process. Few of them are very financially well-set and “standing down” from orders they personally deem illegal could ruin their life. Big decision for 18-25 y/o’s to be making and glib comments like “just stand down” kind of gloss over the total psychology of the situation.
https://girightshotline.org/en/military-knowledge-base/conscientious-objection-discharge/
There are programs in place to provide help to troops considering Conscientious Objection. Every single law is up to personal interpretation, so I don’t know why you feel the need to emphasize it here. When I was asked to join the military during Bush II, I refused and am proud of that decision. Probably would have made my father proud. Probably would have gotten a lot of respect in my community. Probably would have helped pay for a college degree I wouldn’t actually get a job with. But fuck traveling half way across the planet to kill civilians to protect an oil company’s profits. If that was an easy decision for me at that age, not violating the rights your own countrymen should be even easier.
I never knew about this. I actually hope all our troops know about this also.
The ACLU seems like it should also cover this sort of thing.
It is I believe
I just checked their website. They need to add a Conscientious Objection section to make that more explicit.
Do we need to have our commitment to them in writing in the presence of a lawyer in order for them to do the right thing and not follow illegal orders and threaten fellow Americans?
They took an oath.
That has nothing to do with our support.
That being said, the support of the public tends to be more consistent than the support of the leadership we find ourselves with in recent history. That’s made obvious by all the people getting help from others via GoFundMe type donations to cover their medical bills or simply for doing the right thing and being punished for it.
Do we need to have our commitment to them in writing in the presence of a lawyer in order for them to do the right thing and not follow illegal orders and threaten fellow Americans?
No idea how to get the point across effectively, but some general assurance of a soft landing on/from the side for which they’re putting their personal future at risk would probably be pretty helpful. The more ostracized and hated they feel in these early stages would probably just push them toward the other side, based on a rough risk-reward analysis.
If anyone is actually depending on those sworn/affirmed oaths to keep the troops on their side, then they’re living in a naive fantasy world. Those oaths are beautiful in their intent, but crumble pretty quickly in the harsh reality of viable livelihood and expected future compensation. Sorry, but I’m cynical and in my view loyalty is most easily purchased via material guarantees than ideology. Within limits, of course, and there’s different thresholds of tolerance toward unpalatable orders vs living conditions for everyone.
Yeah, a lot of people are all talk but actually chickens out when you tell them to practice what they preach or help in some way to the cause. I was arguing in an anarchist community why it is a bad idea to fire the first shot and kill soldiers and police, because it makes it look bad on the protestors and it will finally provide reason for the government to invoke the insurrection act. Unsurprisingly, anarchists know little of the practical reality and are too trigger happy baying for blood. When I dared one to go to California and shoot the authorities if they believe that Trump and co. broke the social contract, unsurprisingly he/she made up excuses and chickened out. Said going about on social media and targeting far right leaders is just as effective. Right, as if bullying Trump on social media will make him quit the White House lol.
It reminds me why i am not fully on board with anarchism despite having inherent and deep disdain on authority and hierarchy. Sorry my anarchist friends, but you are just as fantasists as any ideologues. I don’t completely condemn violence when it comes to it, but you don’t get the final sympathy when you break the promise of peaceful demonstrations and kill the authorities first. I mean, the world has sympathy on Syrian rebels, because Assad’s forces fired on peaceful demonstrators first. Many people actually soured on the French Revolution at the time, when The Terror started with indiscriminate executions of many individuals deemed enemies of the revolution. Conflicts are won on public relations as well.
A lot of people may or may not be the protesters in the streets, but don’t feel like incriminating themselves on a public forum for internet clout if they are. This isn’t the War Thunder forums.
One of leftist, especially for anarchists, core beliefs is praxis or putting into practice what you preach. I can see where you are coming from, but the interlocutor was literally calling for violence and for himself to raise an army. But when I told him why won’t he do what he says, he basically backed out. That’s not praxis lol.
Well said
Or deploy on orders, then stand with the protestors against ICE
Right?
This isn’t complicated. You either choose to obey an illegal order and threaten/attack other American citizens, or you don’t.
Clearly they have generally chosen, so far, to break the law and betray their fellow Americans.
They should be troubled. They are breaking their oath on the constitution.
On the other hand, they could easily turn and end tyranny before it really sets in.
You say “easily,” but I doubt it appears so easy, because disobeying the order first starts with you violating the UCMJ and paying for it. Only then can you fight and say hey, the order was unlawful. But you’re doing that from military jail. It’s an uphill battle and there’s nothing easy about it.
I imagine the mindset is go, stand around with a shield, don’t murk protestors, and try to just wait this shit out.
Plus, for the Marines, they were living in 29 Palms beforehand, so it’s practically a vacation.
An unpaid vacation with little food.
They’re Marines, I can tell you from experience, they are unfortunately used to it.
Pretty sure they were at Camp Pendleton.
In just hoping that ICE is dumb enough to try to arrest and deport one of the Marines in front of their co-workers just like they do with civilians.
Good. They should be troubled. This is utterly fucked.
Maybe this will be what wakes up Americas military to the fact that everything they do is political. Apparently its harder to trick people into hurting their own country though so thats good to hear.
They should be troubled.
I hope they live with this shame forever
I hope the ones that don’t feel shame from this, soon feel deep shame, and the ones that feel shame from this act in ways that no longer cause shame.
This bullshit is going to absolutely tank military recruitment numbers.
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It would be really bad if the only people left in the military were trump stooges.
This. And that’s a good thing
good start, recognizing that you ARE pawns. Always were. Next step: being strong enough to quit and deal with the court martial.
being strong enough to
quitrefuse unlawful orders and use your own common sense and basic decency to resolve conflicts in the field and deal with the court martial.if they had decency and basic sense they would not have volunteered in the first place. The trick now is to grow what little incipient hatred they have into a consciousness and recognition that they are being abused because of their class.
edit: the initial reply was harsh - those who need help after getting sucked in are the decent ones - they are “waking up.” I may hate the military and the dicks who keep supporting it, but do want compassion for the ones who realized they were tricked into joining as children and need to get the heck out.
Goddamn, you really hate the military, huh?
I think it is, in the modern era, completely used to bolster corporate profits, destroy lives, spread violent hegemony and exploit the working class all over. So. Yeah.
Our US nation is not the “world police” and the members who wish to leave need help and support in getting out. While they acknowledge they were actually and really brainwashed through professional propagandist workflows.
The ones that rock Punisher logos and “Terrorist hunting permits” and “Don’t tread on me” flags on their F250s need to be ignored at all points in the day. They are already too far gone.
This should be a wakeup call for service members everywhere to plan their exit now before they end up deployed against the homeland too.
Or you can stay in the service and be a sabot in the wheels. Being a shitty soldier will do more to hurt the fascist service than leaving it. Trust me, i was a shitty soldier.
Also being a mole and letting resistance groups know what’s going on
Well that would be treason which i’m not advocating for.
Just being slow and fat fingering things are not traitorous things.
Treason is punishable by the death penalty so keep that in mind. Especially with who is in charge currently.
You seem to be confused. Obeying the fascist illegal orders is the treasonous act.
I’m not confused. A soldier has to walk a fine line on what they can legally do. I won’t advocate for soldiers to do illegal things. I will advocate for soldiers to disobey illegal orders and to be a shitbag for any work details they think are undemocratic. Until we’re in a full blown civil war it’s better to lie low than get kicked out of the service from spying.
If you ignore how laws are written and how the world works then yeah you’d be correct.
In the real world teft is correct
I get it but if things start going down the Civil War route than anything is fair game.
Also there is no leaving the military, it is illegal by the very definition and you will go to military prison
Not in the US, we don’t have compulsory service, and people leave legally all the time. Letting their enlistment expire is a way to leave, they could also get discharged for medical reasons, though maybe that’s not something to plan on. There are others, but I’m not sure how advisable any of them are.
How about invading a country halfway around the world that didn’t do anything to us?
That should be a great morale booster, historically.
I think the primary difference here is they know the population they’re oppressing so it’s difficult to wholly believe the propaganda.
When being imperialists abroad, they’re fed a steady stream of propaganda about how they’re the hero, that they’re saving democracy, babies, capitalism, and what not. Most of them don’t speak the language and have difficulty relating to the local population. Americans are notoriously ignorant of everything outside the US (fine, in the US too) and the locals they’re defrauding are understandably afraid and/or hostile, so many don’t learn otherwise or don’t want to accept otherwise. Imagine the blow to the psyche of switching gears from “great American saviour” to “brown kid murder machine to make rich people richer”. That’s tough.
Now the lies are much harder to believe. They speak the language, share the culture, and some are at least vaguely familiar with the events leading up to these protests. While 1/3 of the US population are utter numpties, the remaining 2/3 are at least likely redeemable and some of that larger fraction is likely present in the military. They know what they’re doing is wrong and don’t believe the propaganda telling them otherwise.
Now we’ll see if any have the courage to stand against this. I’m not holding my breath.
This is part of why Russian troops faced and still face severe morale dips in Ukraine, because Ukrainians can speak directly to them and ask them what they are doing and why they are killing them.
The main difference there is that they can be unfamiliar with that country and believe what they are told about it.
Hard to be unfamiliar with the country you grew up in, and only 30% of the population is willing to believe what they are being told about it now despite their life experiences not showing that to be the case. I mean since when have those types of people been “scared” of Californians?
Judging by the suicide rates, that wasn’t either.
Please. Please. Please. Come on boys, just read the Constitution, you didn’t sign up for this shit.
At the largest demonstration since Trump first intervened, last Sunday, the national guard was hemmed into a staging area by Los Angeles police cruisers and played almost no role in crowd control. Since then, its service members have been deployed to guard buildings and federal law enforcement convoys conducting immigration sweeps. The marines, who arrived on Wednesday, are expected to play a similar function, with no powers of arrest.
Jayzuz. What a shit show.
They were pushing crowds away and making arrests yesterday I think.
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I feel like I specifically saw them pushing back a crowd on one of the stream yesterday and making a line quite far from any building entrance. I thought I saw one of the news networks reporting on an arrest by them but I can’t find anything about it. Mostly hearsay.
