I’ve had multiple family members deployed to active warzones.
Whenever we talked about war, it was never about politics. It was always “X’s tour is supposed to finish next month,” or “I heard something happened near [town], wasn’t X deployed near there?”
I know how everyone talks about it on the internet, but what is it like for you at home?
My family agrees that Israel learned nothing from the fascism that their families escaped and fought against and believes Israel is committed to nazism against Arabs. But my ex’s family is the typical liberal Zionist family that attributes all of this at the feet of hamas and Netanyahu. It’s a form of delusion that prevents any dialogue about the subject. They read passages from the Passover Seder with absolutely zero connecting of the dots to the horrors the state of Israel is committing against a helpless population. It completely makes clear to me how Hitler came into power and it makes me sad.
Fixed spelling error.
“Liberal Zionist?” Asking because I dont understand, not attacking anything.
Liberal Zionists prefer more palatable methods for eliminating Palestinians (cultural erasure, apartheid, legalized land seizure) but they don’t oppose genocidal escalations when they do occur.
They would prefer a two state solutions but believe Arabs and Jews are incompatible together. They are otherwise relatively progressive for their age. They’re Bernie supporters. it’s what is called Progressive Except Palestine (PEP).
My ex is Jewish and my kids are half Jewish. Our discussions have been focused on the fact that what Netanyahu is doing has been making Jews less safe around the world. anti-Semitism is rising because of the fact he is murdering innocent people and children
My kids are less safe because of the Israeli PM and his Zionist government
Zionism wasn’t just taught to the boomer generation in America their entire lives, there was no other concept at all. The reality was that Jews belonged in Israel and no other context was provided. It was true for our Jewish education, too, but the internet and global media has changed things. It’s really hard to get someone to understand that we are not Israel and Jews are not Israel. We are not them and this is something we should be condemning. I had a bit of a time just getting my father to come around to the idea that a ceasefire might be a good idea on account of all the children being killed. That’s how deep this goes even oceans away.
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But don’t most Israelis* take part in the killing (either directly or indirectly by being a POG) through their military service? In America, I could believe that while most people are stupid and amoral, there are only a minority of bloodthirsty racists…
Most Jews don’t live in Israel. 18 million Jews, 7 million live in Israel. The way you framed your comment doesn’t really make sense. You’re talking about Israelis, not Jews as a whole.
Yeah, most Israelis, let me change that up quick.
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Idk what you meant by this but okay. 👍
I know my family are raging Zionist so I don’t even bring it up.
Its a genocide, not a war
lol bruh, nonexistent. I’m not into starving civilians, my family’s not into thinking. One cannot overstate the intergenerational trauma of the holocaust and how it impacts the worldview of the children of survivors.
Seems like an easy moral “don’t go to jail card” that collapses under any sort of scrutiny (“so your parents were murdered by their European neighbours so now you can murder Semites without issues?”), perhaps because they themselves have some blood in their hands and would rather bury their heads in the sand. Diabolic behaviour, NGL.
My family overwhelmingly supports the genocide and the Israeli government. My father even thinks they arent going far enough and my mother just wants it to look pretty. The majority of Jewish people (especially religious people) see not only Palestinians but all muslims as lesser people.
Im not intrested in hearing “not all Jews” like its supposed to make me feel better because it doesn’t. It just whitewashes real issues and fundamental problems with the Jewish community. The simple fact that Zionists control Jewish education and own most Jewish institutions, and they use it to spread hate.
Just wanted to say you’re getting a skewed picture of people’s opinions, as Lemmy isn’t popular / well known at all in Israel.
The absolute majority of Jews in Israel are united in wanting the hostages back (currently 58, of which an estimated half are still alive).
A lot want that and to end the war ASAP, not for any real concern for the Palestinians, but for the troops, the economy, and world image.
A lot want to keep going to eradicate Hamas and Hezbollah and Houthis to prevent October 7th from ever happening again.
It’s difficult to be pro Palestinian when your friends and family have been slaughtered or held hostage by a (seemingly) unprovoked attack against soldiers and civilians.
The Overton window in Israel doesn’t currently allow it, though things might have been changing very recently.
At least here, we don’t discuss it much in the same way we don’t discuss the mountain near town; it’s there, we can’t move it, shrug your shoulders, it’s part of the landscape.
This is a lengthy question, but it comes from a place of positive intent and genuine inquiry.
As someone stateside with Jewish friends in JVP as well as Palestinian sympathies of my own, this is context that I’m missing. I read about the refusenik movement and the Likud Party’s stances on conscientious objectors. And similarly, Holocaust denial on the Hamas side and openly cidal rhetoric. I read a bit about the original treaty between Mohammed and the other local tribes, as it was a founding document for sharia law. As a result, the subsequent Jewish exile shaped the lives and culture of the diaspora. Not just their religion, but their philosophy and morality. The genocide of the Holocaust led a number of German and European Jews to be given the option–from the bloodied hands of the Nazi regime–an opportunity to instead be deported to Palestine as part of the Haavara agreement. The following Nakba, what Israel describes as the War of Independence, was described by neutral parties in the region as a massacre by extreme-right settlers who killed Palestinian Arabs (regardless of religious denomination) and Jewish sympathizers equally. Subsequent laws drawing the lines of Israel by the 1948 lines drew Palestinian Arabs as blatant second class citizens in what I, as an outsider, percieve as a reflection of Sharia law. Gaza’s creation as an open air prison complex is, by national convention, a collective punishment.
This is the context as far as I understand it. Forgive the gaps in my knowledge, I’m a white American with no religious or familial ties to either. But if both the Israeli system treats non-Jews as an other to be eliminated, and the pro-Caliphate extremists favor nearly identical conditions for non-Muslims, which is better? Each regime results in an apartheid-driven ethnostate. Each party having, at one point or another in the past several hundred years, perpetrated several wars and genocides against one another in a struggle for a piece of land that has formed the axis of every major Abrahamic religious conflict since the 8th century, is… a lot.
Is returning a genocide for a genocide right? Is it equitable to vow the extermination of an outsider as vengeance for a crime that their great grandparents don’t remember? Obviously, my fluency in both cultures is severely limited, and I’m trying my best to understand. But if the sanctity of life and the forgiveness of one’s enemies are values held by both cultures, what is the catalyst for this genocide as it stands currently?
If this sounds like an attack, I swear it isn’t. I haven’t had a conversation with someone actually from Israel concerning the matter, believe it or not. So my picture of the situation has been incomplete. Obviously, this was never about October 7th. This started long before that. But where, and when? And why?
October 7th? Seemingly unprovoked?
Do they not understand how Israel was created and how it’s maintained ? It’s like if the Europeans who invaded, pillaged and settled in North America also stole their identities afterwards to spin the narrative! After all, Germanics and Eastern Europeans are as Semitic as I am a lady (I’m a hairy dude). The only moral thing to do is to condemn Israel as the European colonial project it always was, and not to take part in the killing at the very least.
But how can “Jews” (Moses killed ONE man in a way that one Palestinian could kill one low level IDF soldier and that was enough for him to realise that wasn’t the way… how do they claim to fear God? Lol) talk about it in earnest when their hands are covered in blood? The cowardly, weak and irresponsible way of acting will follow their personalities and they’ll just have a tantrum not to accept the reality of things: if you were part of the IDF, you 100% murdered innocents and have probably earned your place in Hell (definitely if you never repent!). I understand how sensitive that can make one feel, at the same time I understand they’re truly horrible human beings who will make any excuses and believe any lies necessary, so honest dialogue is impossible…
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“Seemingly unprovoked” does not mean unprovoked, but perceived as unprovoked
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The post asked for how Jewish opinions, this reply tries to sum up what they hear. Don’t shoot the messenger.
Of course you can (and should, inho) disagree with the general opinion, fuck, they’ve been reelecting that absolute moron for how long?
At no point did I shoot the messenger, I’m just empathically saying there’s no fence sitting in this situation that’s extremely clear for anyone except those with a very ‘European colonizer’ mindset.
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I’m an American atheist Jew, and I’ve had conversations with my (converted) mother about it. She’s pretty solidly on Israel’s side, but she’s also not very educated about the conflict. She just kinda goes by the mainstream media’s narrative and doesn’t think too much beyond that. When I present her with information, she’s horrified and agrees with me that “Israel is going too far,” but it never results in her thinking the U.S. should stop sending them money. She hates Netanyahu and his conservative government, but she’s very hung up on Hamas being a terrorist organization. And I suppose I am too, to be honest. I want a free Palestine and for the Israeli settlers to be expelled, but I don’t want to support Hamas and I think they should pretty much be eradicated. I’m just much more willing to condemn Israel for their actions than she is; she’s very caught on the idea that Israel has a right to defend itself from Palestinian terrorism, and has a hard time seeing that it’s gone way past that at this point.
Hamas being a terrorist organization.
For what it is worth the Warsaw Uprising and the Yugoslavian Partizans were also terrorist uprisings against their legal governments that were committing a (technically legal) Holocaust.
