With Linux being the standard for server systems there is no way to force locked bootloaders everywhere without making the whole web and a lot of companies collapse. But I expect more limitations regarding desktop systems. It’s hard to tell at this point because it’s a complex issue, not only from an economical but also political point of view (Mass surveillance).
Don’t I own this hardware? Can I not do what I want with it?
You own the hardware but not the software.
And that includes the firmware required for you to load your software.
Case in point:
Find a recently-ish manufactured used Chromebook/chromebox, and try to unlock the BIOS so you can slap a different OS on it
Source: it me 🫠
You’ll shoot your eye out, kid.
/s
Your account is marked as a bot by the way, you can fix that in your user settings
I already did, but thanks nonethless.
Oh sorry about that, it’s still showing up as a bot for me but it’s fine on your instance. I think the information just hasn’t federated over to lemmy.ca yet
Interesting. Maybe it helps if I log off?
It might, but I think it might be a federation bug between our instances. I haven’t seen one like this before, but I’ll keep an eye out to see if it happens again / there’s a pattern.
You could also try setting yourself as a bot, saving, and then reversing it again. That might prompt your instance to send out the information again.
Thanks, I will try to switch it on and off again.
Beep-boop!
Companion (2025)
It’s called secure boot and it’s been around for over 10 years now.
Microsoft is already starting to lay the groundwork with their CPU, SecureBoot, and TPM 2.0 requirements.
Apple has been doing this for a long time, though there are ways to get around it on MacOS, for now.
On PC, the answer is Linux. For mobile devices, things are looking more bleak.
The situation is actually quite awful. I remember when TPM was palladium and there were apocalyptic talks in tech conferences about it being the end of general purpose computers. The idea that your computer could veto what it was used for.
The backlash only set them back a few decades apparently. Everyone forgot and now it’s a literal requirement for the latest Windows and in two months they’ll stop supporting the old Windows…
Next phone I get I’ll get fairphone and check the market for an alternative OS at that time. This might be the push that the Linux phone community needs to make it proper and good.
We currently need a KDE phone that they sell where I can buy a KDE phone and support them that way.
The pieces are coming together for Linux notably:
- SPA support instead of apps.
- Waydroid
- Core components such as calling, sim card actions, recording, speakers can be provided by fairphone via drivers.
I’m getting pretty sick of Google and other corpos locking down Android so fuck them, third best phone OS will have to do and I’ll do banking in the mobile browser page.
This is what happened when we allowed companies with a profit incentive to code our devices. Linux will always be free, and there will be companies that design computers for Linux, such as Fairphone, Framework, Furi, Fedora, and probably some that don’t start with F too
How does Fairphone design computers for Linux?
The Fairphone is one of the beat supported Linux Mobile devices
It’s been tried a bit before, but didn’t get through. The current situation with secure boot is worrying, because we’re one manufacturer playing ball away from it to become a reality.
I’d like to say there’s strong incentive to not do that, but it seems that logic alone would not stop this kind of push. And weirdly enough, even financial risk might not be enough, as we’ve seen baffling decisions made these last few months.
The main saving graces is that there are more than two manufacturer for motherboard, and as far as I know, patent lockdown and secrecy isn’t as big on PC hardware than on mobile boards, so it might be easier to escape such lockdown. But fully locked down systems under external control is clearly where some people wants us to go.
Users are getting dumber by the day. The people arguing back to me about “this is a you problem” when I mention reasons why device ownership is important is way too fucking high.
This is why you gatekeep hobbies. Keep the dipshits out so they don’t become the masses that ruin what you enjoy.
Exactly, if I like something I try to keep it on the down low, or only spread it in circles where I know it will be similarly appreciated, the moment a majority of the people are into something, that thing will now get subjected to external influences that require it to be liked by everyone and most people are mediocre so the thing moves towards mediocrity
It will creep in slowly since most people dont touch any settings on their computer after the initial unboxing and setup.
Big box retailers will offer discounts on them, much like how you can buy a Chromebook for very little.
Enticed by cheap computers, people will buy not knowing that any limitations exist. They’ll be encouraged to use centralized app repositories but they can still install some other stuff.
A year or two later, some things won’t be permitted, computer will make scary warnings when installing, but with enough clicking, you can get past. Until the day you can’t.
It will be a progression, but it will happen eventually. I honestly am surprised that computers dont require some sort of registration. I’m sure that will happen eventually.
Isn’t the serial number already on the box? So its already scanned into a database then you checkout? I know for phones at least, they definitely scan the barcode with the imei at checkout
And just like that I’m all about Ubuntu phones now
Which devices are you planning to get at right now?
Either buy pine or try out userland for current but I haven’t completed the research yet
I would say if/when PCs move over to ARM than we very well may see the same issues mobile devices have. There is a severe lack of Linux compatibility due to proprietary drivers, sometimes no drivers at all, no software support, and no device trees.
Also ARM is way less standard. While UEFI does exist on ARM, most just use some custom bootloader. And let’s not forget how ARM is protecting its Mali Linux drivers.
It’s not going to happen.
Motherboard manufacturers are not going to start making Windows only BIOS.
Microsofts target audience isn’t the private user. It’s companies. The money they make selling their OS to private persons are table scraps compared to their enterprise licenses. Any such initiative would fuck over every single enterprise customer.
That’s the whole intention of requiring TPM for Windows 11. It’s coming soon.
They also banned Kaspersky in the states because they weren’t whitelisting state malware.
Never
It isn’t gonna happen
The enshittification would be too much, and people would gravitate twoards the more usable tech.
People liked Apple and Google because they offered simplified UX that still let people access what they wanted, as soon as people feel too restricted they will stop using the tech.
This trend is independent and unimpeded by the legality of the tech.
It will happen when the major companies produce some kind of magical formula that literally everyone wants and are willing to sacrifice freedoms just to have it.
THIS is the reason they are chasing AI so hard and trying to make it to AGI before anyone is ready or prepared. They want everyone to have their magical fairy whispering product placements in their ear and charming them into simulated relationships so that the users abandon all thought of having personal control and freedom to train the things themselves, to install their own upgrades, etc.
The next major “thing” we all carry is going to be some kind of AI that can see through your view of the environment and can whisper to you privately various simulated thoughts, observations and relevant info about the things around you. As well of course as “Hey look, Kohl’s is having a 35% off sale on jackets, didn’t you need one?”
This is their dream, this is why they have put so much into the tech. People are going to gobble it up if they can ever get there, and with that goes all semblance of autonomy, freedom or independant thought.
Call me when they start bringing in legitimacy between understanding how the brain actually functions and relate it to how computation systems actually work.
The current models STRUGGLE with basic speech comprehension that humans are able to nail with significantly higher precision (Just look at LLMs that struggle with dialects between large regions like the US). Use a slang word in a modern search, or use a common definition vs the literal, AI stumbles and fails frequently. Having worked on models as someone whose job was in AI, the algorithms STRUGGLE even understanding basic concepts such as ‘Yes’ and ‘Yeah’ being interchangeable without dedicated training. There is a reason that it used to be countless humans sitting in a room teaching a machine how to do something with basic boolean values.
Current Automated Intelligence (I refuse to call it Narrow AI as it diminishes the term AI) will simply be the way of things for a long time until these companies can build trust in them and are able to actually roll out reliable items that: 1) Dont make up data. 2) Can verify data on its own. 3) Can actually understand and infer things based on when people type/say something.
True AI or what they are calling AGI nowadays is a pipe dream similar to what 3D/Augmented Reality/Holographic concepts are. There will be spikes of innovation followed by periods of stagnation. The only difference is that right now current AI models are useful in the corporate world which will lead to shorter periods of stagnation comparably.
I’m not saying it will be good, but it will be pushed as the next big thing and it will work enough to get people who are already locked into their ChatGTP waifu fantasies or using the thing to supplant their missing social lives in some way to jump over to it, bugs and all. Which is still millions of people.
I think actual AGI is years and years away, but the things the major companies will release in the near future will “simulate” general intelligence in a few clever ways, and as we’ve seen, the public doesn’t have the attention span to care about the nuance, they just want something that makes them feel special.
Your statement made me chuckle because I agree about the social fantasies the current models have allowed folks to live.
I think where I simply dissent is, do I believe corporations are evil and greedy enough to try something like this? Yes, I do. Hell Apple is the epitome of this with all the hoops you have to jump through and any non-basic-tech-literate person would not pursue/approach. However, that is the problem, users wont want to not have their favorite app that their friend also has simply because of their device/provider/overlord.
Because we are simply debating on an internet forum, Im gonna take my personal belief and assert it here (/s). Looking at the fact that Microsoft backed off the console war, my greater concern is not a ‘gotcha’ that companies like Google and such will apply, its the concept that we are quickly running into fewer and fewer alternatives so its going to be a ‘lesser of evils’ choice.
Apple showed the way, other companies have been struggling to figure out how they are going to match that. The one foil to this thought/approach is that like the op of this thread stated, an as I infer, users will gravitate away from being locked in.
Or hopefully we both wind up with wrong conjectures and find that the market goes in a different direction, but I admit myself that is kind of wishful thinking.
There are a lot of things I hope I’m wrong about, but I have seen over and over as far back as the earliest days on the internet, companies like AOL have given users the illusion of choice, the feeling that they have control over what they’re looking at and “installing” and that effect has been played with back and forth, from apple giving users a lot of control while also outsourcing app development to third parties to platforms like Steam who have remained stalwart allies to consumers. But even those spaces are somewhat gated and those gates got taller and taller as time went, and I think a lot of platforms would be very happy if they had absolute control over the content users have access to, and have tried to exert this control in many ways.
We wouldn’t have so many legal challenges and issues around monopolization, right to jailbreak, etc. if this wasn’t still a burning problem, so I don’t expect AI is going to be much different, especially since it’s so abstract and “weird” and not even programmed but almost shaped and grown and can still barely interact with computer apps outside of itself.
I guess time will tell if we get a whole a generation of people locked into corporate matrix worlds where they know the steak isn’t real but love it anyway, or if people find ways to train their anime catgirl companions to download, interact with or even simulate 3rd party apps and custom content and they actually become the tools we hope which help us, not just feed us advertisements.
This is already happening, but it’s on an organisational level by policy. These policies can be applied to systems that follow trusted computing rules, which is most Windows 10 systems and pretty much all windows 11 systems. Google has laid the groundwork for this since the pixel 3 was released in 2018.
Since then, we have seen Google put the Titan security module in all phones and I’m certain Chromebooks are requiring TPM modules that serve the same function.
Apple has been doing the same since God knows when. Their systems have had unique chips that ensure that when MacOS is installed, it is only installed in Apple computers. There are ways around this, just as there are ways around the TPM requirement for Windows 11.
The trusted computing model, when fully imposed, can basically stop any applications from running that have not been given the blessing of the security team.
As far as I’m aware, the only people taking advantage of the technology are government institutions.
The fact that this can be wielded to enforce control over private individuals by our corporate masters is becoming a very real possibility, but the fact that it hasn’t happened yet, by any vendor, is, in my opinion, good evidence to say that it’s unlikely, but not impossible. Maybe that’s wishful thinking on my part.
In any case, the only truly free operating system left is GNU/Linux, with few other exceptions.
They’re waiting until all the products in the wild can be locked down.
Right now, they’re struggling to get people.to jump to Windows 11, and people are hoarding their old computers. They want all the products that don’t have TPM or its equivalent to be outmoded before they remove the mask.
Maybe. In my experience business isn’t that patient.
A TPM is otherwise a good thing. It can extend cryptographic capabilities and the overall security stance of the system.
But I digress. I will reserve judgement for now. Time will tell either way, and I don’t think anyone will feel like gloating if they start to lock it down like you believe they will.
Gnu Hurd ftw ! (I’ll see myself out)
Such pcs already exist and are used by buinesses and schools all over… Mostly chromebooks and i suppose apple also fits that criteria.
But it would be very hard to stop a determined hacker who has physical access to a device and doesnt mind voiding any warranties or user agreements.
Most Chromebooks can have other operating systems. Many have a bypass, mine needed to have the battery disconnected from the motherboard while installing the os, then you could connect it back and be done.
yes most chromebooks if you own them you do what you want because google knows even if they did lock them down more someone out there would be waiting with a soldering iron to figure out how to mod them into running other things. But thats not the same thing as a company that buys devices for their employees and doesnt give said employees permission to open them (without risking their job anyway). The point being, the “demand” for such systems is already mostly met, normal PC users/ gamers wouldnt actually buy a product like that, because if they did it would just be a “Console”. You couldnt force it on users because there isn’t a monopoly of PCs like there is with phones or game consoles
Actually I should have said in my original post, Game Consoles also qualify, because the PS4/5 Xbox whatever, the last 2 generations they’re literally just locked down PCs with very specific hardware.
For phones Google gets to decide, as an os maker. For PCs, there are multiple OSses so hardware manufacturers get to decide.
I personally don’t see AMD or Intel doing that anytime soon, and if they do, at least Arm and Risc-V are making some good progress in the desktop space
Microsoft tried to get things going that way with “s”, but it didn’t take
I bought my wife a cheap Lenovo laptop when she needed something that supported the “Lockdown” browser (no Linux support). Didn’t realize when I bought it what “S” meant (and I’ve been an IT guy for over 20 years). Got it home and realized what was up, it couldn’t even run that browser because it had to be the preconfigured browser from her school and not one from the MS store. An evening of fiddling and a $3 grey market key and she was back onto a normal Windows install.
On the plus side the laptop was only like $299 or $399 and really isn’t too bad on the hardware side.
It’s almost already like this. In my country every single bank reinvented the wheel by creating a single purpose app which does what aegis does (otp generation from a seed) but with some bits changed (one for example “encrypted” the seed with ROT13) and with draconian measures like bootloader must be locked, adb must be disabled, and are using literal exploits to see if you have “forbidden” directories on /sdcard like/sdcard/magisk even if no file access is granted
