The other day, my parents asked me (22M) if there were any women that I find attractive (I guess because they’re paranoid about me being gay lol) and I told them yes, there’s a fair number of women that I’ve seen in public that I’ve found attractive.
They asked me, “Do you talk to any of them?” and I said “No??? It’s inappropriate to approach women in public unless you have business with them.”
I told them that it is only appropriate for a man to talk to a woman he doesn’t know when the social situation is explicitly designed for meeting strangers—dating apps, hobby groups, meeting friends of friends, etc. In my view, cold approaching women you don’t know just because you’re attracted to them is harassment.
My parents told me that I’m being ridiculous and making excuses because I’m nervous. They are adamant that I need to learn to approach women or else I will never find a partner. I told them that times have changed and this is disrespectful and potentially predatory behavior along the lines of unsolicited flirting and catcalling. Approaching women is a violation of their personal space and could make them feel very uncomfortable, especially if they feel like they don’t have an easy way out.
My parents are almost 60 and they are very conservative, so they don’t exactly follow progressive discourse, and I feel like they’re super out of touch on this as a result. Particularly, my mom tends to strike up conversations with other women in public, and she’s skeptical when I tell her that I can’t do the same thing because I’m a man and would be viewed as a potential predator.
But I also don’t get out much, which makes me second-guess how distorted my understanding of the social world is from reality. My parents are like a broken clock, and sometimes they DO have a point about something despite 90% of their opinions being insane. Maybe there is a more nuanced reality that I’m not picking up on.
So I wanted to ask here. Are my parents out of touch? Am I out of touch? Are we both wrong? I want to know your opinion.
I’ll just say you probably shouldn’t take dating advice from people who haven’t done any dating for the last 30-40 years. The world has most certainly changed.
People are allowed to speak to one another in public. Just be respectful of people’s cues, and that goes for people of all genders.
The world has changed, but this particular piece of advice is timeless. I approach people I want to talk to in real life every day, multiple times a day. No one is ever offended by it, literally ever. The reason women get offended over men approaching is because they do this thing where they approach the woman as an object, leading with their sexual desire, as if the woman is obligated to satisfy them simply because the man feels attracted. It’s a recipe for disaster.
Listen, men, there’s nothing wrong with being sexually attracted to a woman. But approach her as a human being first. Be considerate of how she’s feeling, pay attention to her boundaries, and be respectful. Of course, at some point, you need to express your interest, and it’s better to be transparent about that rather than creepy. If you are motivated by sexual interest, her intuition will tell her that long before you think it will, so no sense in hiding it. But as a general rule, never outpace the level of reciprocation she’s given you.
That means, don’t walk up to a stranger who isn’t making eye contact with you and tell her you want to fuck her. Don’t even ask for her number. First, make eye contact. If she makes eye contact back, you can proceed to the next step. Say hi. If she says hi back, you can introduce yourself. If she reciprocates by introducing herself, you can ask a question or tell her something. After you’ve had a conversation, you can ask for her number, or suggest a date. But take it one step at a time. If you take two steps ahead and she hasn’t reciprocated, that’s when you’re gonna get into trouble. If she stops reciprocating, stop escalating. If she expresses a boundary or discomfort, thank her for letting you know, and back off.
TLDR; approach! But slow the fuck down and pay attention to if she’s comfortable and reciprocating. Respect her boundaries. You honestly won’t go wrong with that approach.
I’ve approached about 800 women a year, for the past 4 years and the worst thing that’s happened is that my ego got a little bit hurt a few times when they said no thank you. Zero drama, zero anger, zero cancellation. And I’m just an average looking ginger dude.
Just learn to talk to all people in social situations, and don’t make it transactional.
The right people will just drop into your life naturally.
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
I think there’s a lot of nuance that both sides of this are missing. There’s a lot of middle ground between not talking to women out in the world at all, and going up to random girls and saying "nice shoes, wanna fuck?
You absolutely can approach people, strike up a conversation, maybe even hit it off and spin it into a friendship or romantic relationship.
I’m far from the guy to tell someone how to do that and try to pick apart the it’s and outs of what makes some things ok and others not, but it is something that absolutely can be done.
Do you ever make small talk with men with whom “you don’t have business?”
I’m assuming yes, you probably do. Speaking with women is the same, just be sure to pick up on cues if they don’t want to speak. In fact, I’d advise you to practice by making small talk with everyone you can, with no agenda, and pay attention to their cues.
Actually, I don’t. I am far more afraid of talking to men. All of the male family members I grew up around were violent. I was punched or choked as a kid if I did anything to offend them. And so, I learned to never do anything that could possibly provoke them for fear of what would happen to me. My mother also sometimes used corporal punishment on me, so I also learned to expect violence from women if they become angry.
So it seems like I have a general fear of offending people because, besides hurting others emotionally, I always expect violence to follow. The easiest way to avoid offending strangers is to never engage with them, and so that is the position I take by default. I don’t want to bother anyone.
And this is why I asked this question. I am now self-aware of the fact that I have a completely distorted hyper-paranoid mental model of social dynamics where negative reactions have nuclear consequences and must be avoided at all costs. At the same time, I know that most of my parents’ takes are pretty bad, but there is an occasional kernel of truth in what they say. I thought that this was likely to be one of those situations, so I wanted to see if others could help point out the nuance.
So far, I have lived my entire life under the fear of violence. It prevented countless friendships and social interactions from ever happening. I avoided everything bad at the cost of everything good, and it left me with nothing. That prevented me from learning a lot of common sense social norms, like when small talk is even appropriate. I just assume that it never is, and people would rather stare at their phones than ever talk to a stranger. I guess I’m wrong about that.
That’s a lot to process and unlearn tbh. I honestly wouldn’t worry about romantic or flirting interactions at this stage and maybe just practice lower stakes social interaction, yes like small talk. Like anything, conversation takes practice and you get better at it the more you do it. But the reality is, you can’t go into a situation expecting perfection. You will say something awkward or embarrassing at some point because that’s just human nature. We all have. Coping with that sort of thing is a necessary experience and skill. Maybe you could try going to an event geared for socializing and just challenge yourself to have two conversations, with no goal in mind. I think I would get used to casual interactions before attempting to figure out romantic ones.
The easiest way to avoid offending strangers is to never engage with them, and so that is the position I take by default. I don’t want to bother anymore.
I assume you recognize that isn’t a tenable position long term. If you’re looking to start growing from that point I have a suggestion.
This isn’t quite clear and definite, but there can be a small social gift you give to people when you have a small problem that they can easily solve. It takes a fair amount of time to develop this to know the boundaries and limits, but I’ll give you an easy one: Ask for the time
Just about any random stranger, when you are both at a location for a clearly legitimate reason (bus stop, grocery store, post office, etc), will give you the time when asked. This isn’t something to do when at 2AM outside a bar. Needing the time is a benign problem that everyone has had at one time in their lives, and its something nearly everyone in modern society can solve. The interaction is so easy its rote. Keep your distance and catch their attention (if they aren’t clearly focused on something else):
You: Excuse me, my phone died. Do you have the time?
Them: (Possibly sizing you up) Uhh, its 5:37
You: Thank you, I appreciate it.
Then you walk away. Practice that with people around until it doesn’t feel uncomfortable.
Oh nooooo
So sorry those losers were not just losers but also abusers (no offense to good memories you have or good parts of them, if any, just covering my bases here b/c life’s complicated)
Would you like to try to build back some confidence here? Elderly folks can be so very sweet (and/or lonely). Next time you’re at a crosswalk and see someone who couldn’t even suddenly dive at you fast enough to make physical contact, you could broach a conversation.
stare at their phones
Maybe we’d rather, but it’s kinda killing us at least in a sense
Published today: https://www.afterbabel.com/p/on-the-death-of-daydreaming
tl;dr interrupting me when I’m on my phone is probably chill (maybe I’ll thank you, or excuse myself if I’m sending a work email/thing)
“Ninja” edit: before folks come @ me for the phone interruption thing (for good reason), mainly advocating for building up those small talk skills that abusers hampered through NO fault of your own
I’d much rather chat with a stranger than stare at my phone while waiting around in public. Connecting with strangers over some simple things can be surprisingly heart warming in an increasingly isolating world. Even just chatting about a good deal on soup or enjoying recent sunshine makes my day a little bit better. If you chose to chat with me, my day would be better.
It’s ok to take up space. You don’t have to become invisible in order to be around people. Assume others know they’ll be around people in public and that they’re comparing you against the assholes on the subway or the screaming, entitled weirdo who is harassing employees. Since I get the impression you don’t act like that, no one is paying much mind to what you’re doing.
Not to pathologize everything, but I’ve found a lot of help in therapy to deal with past experiences, hang ups I’ve had that I didn’t understand, and things I didn’t like that I couldn’t unlearn on my own. Maybe that’s something that could help you be more content in your interactions with people?
My advice on effective therapy: There are bad therapists out there. Find a therapist you click with. There’s evidence that shows the relationship you have with your therapist is the highest indicator of success. So if you don’t jive with them during the first contact (sometimes that’s a phone call to ask questions before committing, sometimes it’s the first session), find another therapist.
Ok. But not everywhere is it accepted to have “small talk”…
I guess, but based upon his parents advice it sounds like it is where OP is.
The amount of times I’ve been in a pleasant conversation with a dude and when it becomes apparent I’m not available, they just immediately stop talking to me. Like… what? It’s abrupt, obvious, and super shitty to do to someone. And for the readers making assumptions about the scenarios–this wasn’t in a bar or a social event. It’s just random places in public where two people might make small talk.
I hope everyone takes your advice. Just talk to people to talk to people, without a transactional goal. Worst case scenario, you practice your conversation skills. Best case, you meet cool people and sometimes those people might want to meet up again or start texting etc. Boom a new friend that could be a relationship if you both are into it. Or you can just collect cool friends.
Disclaimer: This is for relationships and not just people to fuck. Go to places where other people are looking for that if you want to speed run fucking (bars, clubs, mixers, anime cons, etc.), which is totally fine.
Woman here: I’m not annoyed if a person I don’t know talks to me, as long as a) they don’t interrupt something I’m doing to have conversation and b) they read my body language and fuck off again the moment it’s clear I’m not interested. But asking me questions when I have my headphones in to talk about inane shit while I roll my eyes? Nah.
Learning how to engage and socialize with people of both sexes is a necessary skill. As long as your not being a toxic mess in front of them, you’re fine.
There’s a difference between “approaching women” and “APPROACHING WOMEN.”
You should be comfortable interacting with women in any environment simply because a) they are human beings and b) they’re over 50% of the population.
You can’t go outside and just never talk to women, that’s actually creepier.
You don’t have to be trying to pick someone up to, you know, treat them like a human being and talk to them.
deleted by creator
If you wouldn’t strike up a conversation with a guy, don’t strike up a conversation with a woman. Be comfortable with conversations with strangers of whatever gender with no ulterior motive, and you’ll meet more people.
If you meet more people, your likelihood of finding dates will increase as a side effect.
If you are only approaching women, particularly women you find attractive, in places that are not generally for that purpose (bars, parties, swingers clubs), then you’re being a creep.
But regardless, it’s better to have interests, pursue those interests, and meet people with similar interests. Because when you have interests, you might become interesting, and someone might become interested.
I agree with everything else but the starting bit about only starting conversations when you’d also do it with a guy: if you’re not into guys… like on a dating site you’d not equally talk to the men, why at a sports club if you’re wanting a relationship with a woman? If you think someone’s fun and attractive in a way you’d simply not have with a bloke, hecking yes talk to them where appropriate and be friends (if they also want to be) and see if they really match and are also into you etc.
I think they meant “if you’re only approaching people you want to fuck, you’re not going to find success”
Do you talk to men you don’t know in public? Small talk, or jokes at a bar? In the grocery store? Why wouldn’t you talk to women? I am a woman and have daughters and none of us is offended by this, nor even the hypersensitive one, not even the lesbian. It’s friendly talk.
It’s harassment if you don’t stop when you get a rejection. It’s harassment if you sidle up with some horrifying personal comment about her body, or grab her arm and make her listen. You aren’t going to do any of that. Small talk is not harassment, flirting is not harassment.
You are right in one way - it was bad that guys used to be able to say anything with absolute impunity, and women couldn’t stop them, I was around for the end of that. Those guys didn’t treat women like people, but in a way, neither are you, right? We are just people, talk to us like people.
I don’t talk to anyone in public because I have historically considered it to be a violation of their right to be left alone. I believed that people stick together in groups of their friends or family, and those groups don’t want to interact with each other. Solo people are a group of one. If everyone follows those rules, there will be no unplanned or unwanted interactions with strangers. Given the current state of the world, the constant phone usage, and general social unrest, it made perfect sense to me that nobody would want to interact with anyone that they didn’t already trust. Based on the responses to that post, it seems like that mental model is flawed.
But this is why I assumed that the discourse around sexual harassment extended to approaching women at all. It was because I already believed that talking to strangers in general was an act of violating their space. So, I assumed that the discourse around guys being creeps was also talking about that. After all, I’d probably get nervous if someone randomly started talking to me, so of course it would make sense for other people to feel super uncomfortable from it, especially if you don’t know if the person talking to you is a predator.
This is an example of how wanting to do the right thing, combined with my limited social understanding, leads to weird and extreme takes.
This makes sense, if they modeled steamrolling people instead of gentle conversation I can understand you don’t have practice or guidance on conversation, and also it’s really normal to feel like you need to have alone space if your family didn’t give you enough of it.
But - unplanned and unwanted are two different things. Without that element of luck, randomness, our lives would be so dull. It’s nice when spontaneous conversation happens. It doesn’t have to go anywhere, doesn’t have to mean anything. I would say if you want to practice the non-confrontational small talk literally just look up from your phone when you are out and about and say hi to people, let them greet you too, see if you feel more comfortable over time.
I will note this is a sort of regional thing - Florida is sort of like ‘The South’ and kind of not, but in terms of people just striking up random conversations, we are like the South. It’s very much normal here. NYC is different people are in a hurry and brusque.
This ^ I was at the hospital today getting some lab work done. Another guy was sitting across from me, head down, in his hands, breathing heavily.
“Hey man, you OK? You don’t look so hot, can I get you some water or something?”
He was OK, 81 years old, he was just upset from being jacked around by the hospital administration. We had a good conversation. I think he was fine when I left.
In my view, cold approaching women you don’t know just because you’re attracted to them is harassment.
I don’t agree with this. You can approach women in public and talk to us without it being harassment. If you approach someone and they tell you to leave them alone and you don’t or they’re obviously uncomfortable and you persist then it’s harassment.
For some context: I’m not as old as your parents but I’m older than you (I’m late 30s).
Oh, I see a peer. He’ll be 30 in a few days. Yes, you are right. If they ask you not to interfere, then you shouldn’t continue. There is still something that repels certain people. I definitely won’t talk to people who are drunk. And lately I’ve noticed that I don’t want to talk (no matter the gender) to people who smoke - no matter what, an IQOS, a cigarette or an electronic cigarette… I hate smokers terribly… Well, I answer calmly, I can continue, but it doesn’t always mean anything. Just talking.Although this has become very rare, and mostly I have headphones on and don’t want to communicate much… There are reasons for this.
But in another country, when moving, I would be happy to talk, even through a translator. As I do with some other people and on different topics on another platform.
You’re not wrong, but you’ve got a bit of an extreme take on it. I think you and your parents may have different thoughts on what it means to “approach” a woman though. I’m going to use “flirt” to refer to talking to a woman with intent of seeing if they would make a good partner for you and just “talk” to indicate just being friendly with someone.
it is only appropriate for a man to talk to a woman who doesn’t know when the social situation is explicitly designed for meeting strangers
No, it’s fine to talk to strangers of any gender in public. Approaching them and flirting with them is not. As long as you can roughly understand when you’re making someone uncomfortable and stop it, you’re not going to come off as a creep/predator. Stuck in a lineup in a store? Chat with someone beside you, maybe commiserate about how long the line is. If you want to flirt with them, then yes the situations you mentioned are definitely the places to do that.
(sort of an aside: whether “meeting friends of friends” is an appropriate situation to flirt with someone you just met is still situation dependent)
They are adamant that I need to learn to approach women or else I will never find a partner.
Approaching women in random public spaces with the intent of finding a partner is also a pretty bad idea. While it could work, it’s definitely creep/predator behaviour so I avoid it. It’s very likely to make them uncomfortable, since they’re just trying to do their thing not get hit on. This can easily be harassment, though I’m on the fence on whether it’s always harassment.
Personally I like to flip the genders on situations like this and ask if I’d want to be the other person in this situation. It’s worth keeping in mind that woman have way more statistical reasons to be weary/wary of any interaction with men, though. Regardless, e.g. if some woman was beside me in line and started chatting with me, I’d be fine with it. If some woman came up to me and complimented my shirt, I’d be fine with it. If some woman came up to me, complimented my shirt, and then asked for my number I’d be weirded out (I don’t know you, lady). If some woman came up to me and asked me to take out my earbuds to commiserate about how long the line is, I’d be annoyed that I’m missing my music.
It is an important skill and confidence booster to approach people in general in public. If you are uncomfortable with women, then start with men.
If that is still uncomfortable, then that means you are uncomfortable to talking with strangers in general. Unfortunately, experience is the only way to combat this. Start small with chit chat in lines, compliment people on their shoes, etc.
Instructions unclear, now paying for a gay wedding.
Instead of making a move or straight up asking the out on a date. Just strike up a convo. You can really tell when someone doesn’t want to push a conversation. Maybe they find you attractive and keep the conversation going?
If you want to cold approach, go to the club.
