Leaked Zoom all-hands: CEO says employees must return to offices because they can’t be as innovative or get to know each other on Zoom::Zoom CEO Eric Yuan discussed the benefits of in-person work in a leaked meeting.
Ice cream factory urges its employees not to eat ice cream.
Couldn’t have said it better myself! It’s like telling someone to work at an ice cream factory but not have any ice cream. Just doesn’t make sense.
You def couldn’t have said it better because you just repeated what they said
I’m going to choose to believe the CEO is actively trying to tank the share price for some reason. This is approaching get fired or sued by shareholders level.
Golden parachute too nice to pass up.
Why tf do out of touch executives and managers always think that we want to make friends at work? I don’t really care to know any of my coworkers, I just want to do my job in a professional manner, get paid well for it, and then either go home or close the laptop and leave my home office.
Also the only creativity that the office gives me is how to creatively get around the Internet restrictions they place on us, or how to creatively appear to be working when there’s nothing to do.
If I wanted to make friends I’d go to a bar or something else that adults do together in groups, like bowling leagues.
Depends on the type of work. Workshops and strategy sessions are definitely better in person than online for me.
Okay so what are you getting from either of those that you can’t get from attending the same on Teams/Zoom etc.?
Workshops also just feel like school and the presenters always talk too fast, quiet, or accented for my hearing and ADHD to make it worth me going to one, some dedicated study time always was the better route for me.
Meanwhile strategy sesh’s are just conversations with an end goal, nothing difficult about that at all.
One thing people who are against work from home have to realize is that not everybody functions the same, some people do better remotely, others need the office.
I just wish we could be treated like adults and work in the way we feel most comfortable and efficiently without being mistreated over it and without being astroturfed against it by entities like the Wall St. journal and Bloomberg, sorry rich people but I just don’t give a fuck about your corporate property values.
Okay so what are you getting from either of those that you can’t get from attending the same on Teams/Zoom etc.?
I don’t get the “Bill, we can’t hear you; you’re on mute” twenty times per hour. Or the guy who doesn’t realize he should be muted but isn’t, and the chat is flooded with his background noise. I don’t get to whisper snarky comments about the presenter to my coworker whom I’m sitting next to. I don’t get to spontaneously engage people hanging around the coffee stand between sessions.
There are tangible differences between remote and in-person. As much of an introvert as I am, and as much as I love working remotely, I recognize that I do better collaborative work when I’m in-person. YMMV, but mine doesn’t.
Does your company not do water cooler sessions for your team? Also you can message people during presentations online to gossip. I just did it yesterday to make fun of some idiotic desperation move our execs are getting ready to pull.
When people say “you can’t do X remotely” what they actually mean is they either put no effort into it or they can do it, but it doesn’t feel the same to them, which is a completely different statement.
I found that keeping up with people over video works better when you’re in the same time zone. When I was managing teams at +8 hours and -12.5 relative hours, communication and trust just weakened steadily over time and creative collaboration stalled. Spending a week there in person usually got things unstuck.
I know people on split engineering teams between LA and Seattle who prefer all virtual and it’s worked long term. LA to NY I think would be a heavier lift.
And, of course, this whole discussion is always dominated by software engineers; there are lots of jobs that involve actual manipulation of matter where in person collaboration is essential to communicate skills.
Oh definitely, timezones do throw a wrench in things a bit, but there are easy ways around that usually, splitting engineering teams like the way you described is a pretty good workaround.
I completely agree that jobs that just can’t be done remotely obviously shouldn’t be, but any job that can be should have the option available. I just feel like most of the work from home backlash comes from people who cannot do their jobs from home and managers/executives that just want someone to babysit, usually in order to justify their own professional existence. It just seems like a lot of “crabs in a bucket” behavior.
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Okay so what are you getting from either of those that you can’t get from attending the same on Teams/Zoom etc.?
Firstly real human interaction. There is a lot of team building that can occur just from having lunch together. Second, just physically being able to put sticky notes or drawing lines and watching someone else do so without having to have someone try to point out where exactly they put something to you in a virtual whiteboard is way more efficient.
Workshops also just feel like school and the presenters always talk too fast, quiet, or accented for my hearing and ADHD to make it worth me going to one, some dedicated study time always was the better route for me.
Firstly if you just have a presenter talking to you, then that doesn’t sound like a collaborative workshop. Workshops might have someone who guides the discussion but never just presenters otherwise that’s not really a workshop and more just a presentation that can be done online.
Meanwhile strategy sesh’s are just conversations with an end goal, nothing difficult about that at all.
I am not sure what kind of strategy sessions you are having but when you are setting things like commercial STRAP for divisions of 20K or more employees, you need more than just a conversation. You need to draw out roadmaps, have working sessions, even the human interactions through lunches and dinners plays a big part.
One thing people who are against work from home have to realize is that not everybody functions the same, some people do better remotely, others need the office.
It’s not black or white. I am a remote worker who travels regularly. Would I ever give up being remote. No. More than half my job can be done from home and I am not wasting my time travelling to the office. But that doesn’t mean I don’t acknowledge when something is just better in person. Not everything is perfect remote and not everything needs to be done in the office. You can have a mix of both and choose based on the requirements of the task.
Additionally, the type of people who are in positions to set organizational strategy are usually the types of personalities that do function between in person because they are typically extroverted personalities. It’s not like I am suggesting you bring a developer to an on site session. I am talking about leaders.
I like my coworkers well enough but there is not a single person in that office whom I would choose to be around socially.
Glad I’m not a stockholder, since the CEO basically says their only product, remote connectivity, stifles innovation and connection. What a world.
They’ve gained about 1.2 billion in market cap this week based on stock price. The super rich do not experience consequences.
Sure, that’s the sensationalist and reactionary headline, but I think the real lesson to learn from all this is that with remote work, like many things, moderation is key. The CEO is not implying “innovation” and “getting to know each other” is necessary for every meeting because it isn’t. So what he’s really saying is whenever those two aspects are necessary, Zoom won’t suffice.
I don’t think we should take any lessons from what CEOs say. If studies show that too much remote work indeed makes for worse results, I’m fine with it. If a CEO says it? Most likely a lie.
They should try using Teams, should solve the problem.
Better upgrade them* networks dawg
The fact of the matter is when your company revolves around you being able to communicate and work from anywhere, it is a bad look for you tell people you can’t communicate effectively over the product you make. Anyone who knows business should know this and should know to keep their mouth shut and their policies focused on trying to destroy business.
Makes me feel like someone is paying to or making them do this. If it’s best for ‘THE’ WFH company to WFO, then every company can say it’s best their employees WFO.
Yes, the executives who are looking at empty offices with decades-long leases is what’s “paying” them to do this.
Greedy dumbasses around the world are subject to sunk cost fallacy, apparently far worse than normal people.
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I think he has a point. So many great ideas at my company were birthed sitting around the table while eating breakfast or drinking coffee.
People ask me stuff they they wouldn’t have sent a ticket about because “it’s not a big issue” and by looking into some of it we find way better methods of dealing with types of workflows.
It’s not the meetings where we find the best ideas. It’s during the coffee breaks. But you need you coworkers to have coffee breaks with so you have something to talk about.
That being said. I’m not American and we don’t have the American office landscapes or office politics.
My company is complete work from home. The issue is that people can’t imagine coworkers talking to each other and being friends while working remotely.
I spend half of most days in spontaneous voice chats with coworkers where we have these exact same moments. Spontaneous discussions leading to ideas that change the way we do things.
It’s not exclusive to being in an office. You just need to adapt to a new work style.
3/4 of the team I am on work from home, 2 of us full time, We have weekly scheduled meetings with no agenda other than to catch up and this is where ideas can come up, We haven’t all been in an office together since before the lockdown yet we continue to thrive. I also have most of each Friday blocked out to work with one of the team on whatever he happens to be working on that day. We just jump in a meeting and do stuff. And like you we are all open to just spontaneous chats at any time either by text or call. It works perfectly well.
I guess you also have those chats where you pull other people in during the conversation, Oh, Suchandsuch will have input, send them an invite to this meeting etc :)
I love it, I get peace and quite when needed to code, and all the interaction I need to make the job work.
We have a daily SUM which is supposed to last 15 minutes. It is usually over an hour, but work makes up at best 20 minutes. The rest is just us chatting.
We also have regular calls with other teams which follow a similar pattern.
It is easy to have “water-cooler” chats while working remotely.
It’s not exclusive to being in an office. You just need to adapt to a new work style.
I’ve spent 2 years in WFH during COVID and haven’t seen this working in any of the teams (even though there were attempts).
One problem is just that remote calls suck a lot, especially if you have latency and audio issues. People talking over each other, then saying “sorry” and waiting 20 seconds, audio too high or low or just poor quality etc. A lot of it could be solved with technology, but weirdly it hasn’t happened yet.
Idk, I leverage Slack huddles regularly and have absolutely no issues with multiple people hanging out and having casual conversations while working. We do these spontaneously throughout the day.
How old are your coworkers generally? My company is mostly on the younger side of things. We grew up with team speak, steam voice chat, and now are often in discord. This is not unfamiliar territory and has always worked well outside of the office.
Don’t worry- there are a LOT of people here trying to say the remote work is inherently better than office work.
I don’t know why (they’re just trying to safeguard their remote work based on shouting into the fediverse?) but it is possible to be nuanced and say some things work better in the office, some work better (or at least just as well) remotely.
I personally think you’re right in that these group things and group chats and such don’t work as well (for me, for many?) as well as being in the office. And I think a lot of that is I don’t want to force myself to go into a big video call or chat up people in teams or whatever. I don’t like this purely online method of communication as anything more than just getting work done. I don’t make lifelong friends nor form deeper connections online and I don’t want to.
I agree with some of the more prudent people that say you should be able to basically work remote (if possible for your job) or come in to an office as you please. That would seem to make the most people happy and content I think.
The thing is I spent a LOT of time in voice chats playing games as a kid. It always worked well then. It hasn’t changed at all. I don’t need to be on a video call. I jump into a voice chat channel and hang out. People come and go, and are quiet for the most part.
Having come from an office environment where everyone worked in cubes, it truly is no different. I don’t need to be face to face with coworkers, because I wasn’t face to face for most of the conversations we had in the office. We’d stare at our screens and talk over the walls.
When we were looking at each other’s faces, it was in the conference room. Those formal meetings are effectively replaced with video calls - and more often are effectively replaced with emails like they should be.
This probably largely depends on your field. But for me, my productivity is higher working from home, because at least at home I can choose when to tune out the noise. In the office, management was personally offended by me listening to music while working alone. I was told to focus on my paycheck if I needed help focusing.
Same here. What I hear from people who can’t innovate, collaborate, insert-activity-here, etc. while working remotely is that they have competency issues in their workforce.
Companies building great things creatively and remotely are not exceptional, and antisocial behaviours when working remotely are a problem with the person, not the technology. But it’s easier to blame the tech than admit your colleagues or team are dysfunctional so “back to the office!” It is for most. I’ll pass though.
Sounds like a small company you work at with tight nit group.
In the states, a good portion of jobs out there are soulless corporate jobs with predefined work. It’s just a grind.
Let’s be honest. If I discovered good ideas at a soulless corp, I wouldn’t be using those ideas at soulless corp.
I mean, people shit talk on discord all the time
I agree, but wouldn’t underestimate meetings. People say that you’re losing productivity, but IME the largest losses of productivity are caused by working on the wrong things, because of too little communication. Sometimes it’s things that are not needed anymore, sometimes it’s just aspects of the feature which are not important (e.g. overengineering) because of lack of context.
I’m not saying all meetings are always needed, but in larger organizations the sync between people and teams is very important.
Ideas don’t come from a coffee break, that’s superstitious nonsense.
You’re not going to sit there, and tell me what my own experience is at my own place of work. Fuck off.
Some person in WorkReform was defending mandatory RTO because an office environment was supposedly more secure. I called bullshit on their claims. Apparently a “cybersecurity expert” lol
I don’t care if companies want to waste resources on buying commercial properties. But don’t force people to go back to the stupid office. It worked for the past 3 years. Profits are higher than ever. People got to spend more time with their families since hours were no longer wasted commuting and sitting in traffic.
Also seems like many companies use this culture bullshit as a reason to force RTO. Motherfucker. I produce output. You generate capital. You pay me. That’s our fucking relationship. Fuck your “cUlTuRe”.
Did you have a counter argument for calling bullshit? Because he probably had a point, there is definitely a niche for that level of security. It just generally involves state secrets.
Certain classifications of documents require access only from physically secure locations, called SCIFs, where all access is monitored and logged. Things like phones and cameras aren’t allowed to prevent any data leakage.
That’s not too say you can’t be secure remotely, but really only against outsiders. Good luck stopping an employee from taking a picture with their personal phone of classified blueprints off their monitor at home. Good luck even knowing they did it before the data is gone.
When you factor in social engineering being the most successful type of “hacking”, an office setting is undeniably more secure. However, most offices don’t need that level of security, because data breaches aren’t a matter of national security, so remote is an acceptable risk.
Ya, this guy is toast. He just told the world he thinks his product sucks - the sane know he’s wrong at least.
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Well that was an impressive way to destroy your entire business model
It’s not about improving productivity, increasing innovation or ‘sharing best practice’, as a former workplace put it. Corporations are forcing a return to office work in an attempt to curb a post-COVID real estate crash - which we honestly need since we have far too many luxury offices being built and not enough homes.
For one place where I used to work, RTO drove down staff morale to an all-time low (already low due to high workloads and bad wages) and pushed the staff turnover rate in my department to 95%. They ended up having to outsource the function to an overseas firm.
Geez sure sounds like this real estate market should be like. Heavily controlled and limited by the government. So that objectively good things, like less daily commuting and therefore less greenhouse emissions, can happen without toppling society.
I will never work in an office again. I literally couldn’t afford my rent and my food costs if I also had to afford a daily gas expense. I am very much not alone in this.
the same local governments that just raised my property tax by $190/mo?
Go to elec. If there are no good candidates - be good candidate.
I’ve got a full time job and kids. Don’t have time to also get into politics.
I’ve been to the city council meetings and I vote. Nothing seems to change
The real estate market is in shit because it is already heavily regulated.
Yes… heavily regulated… thats why an entire generation of people live with their parents because housing costs are many orders of magnitude too expensive for them to afford. Yup. That’s a clear sign that the government is putting heavy regulations on the cost and distribution of real estate.
I’m sorry, but the very premise that in our present society real estate is even lightly regulated is utterly ridiculous on its face value. As is the concept that deregulation will make housing affordable. Letting landlords and capitalists do whatever they want with all property will somehow make property cheaper? People motivated solely by profit will make everything cheaper? No, they will continue to sell property at increased costs so they can increase their profits as they always have.
You have no clue what zoning does to buildability, do you.
Hint: insane ass zoning rules are government regulations. You really want revised government regulations.
Zoning is not federal in US
And way up this thread was referring to localized laws. And you can force certain changes at higher levels, just gotta be prepared for the lawsuit that follows. State of NJ having a huge issue with affordable housing, and Fair Share basically taking a court ruling and running with it and essentially forcing towns to build, or else.
Or Newsom just flat out removing zoning restrictions via state law in Cali.
What a Chad.
All people who think more gov controlling everything should do is look at places like Europe where it’s basically impossible to build and family homes are generational things handed down and you live with your parents until they die and hand over the home to you
“look at places like Europe” is the clearest signifier of someone who has never left the States ever in their life.
In Europe, there are 50 countries, over 150 distinct cultures, wildly different economies and styles of government representing each country, and over 746 million people living within European borders. Of those 746 million, 70% own their own home, compared to 65% of US Americans. Your generalization is absolute nonsense and you should probably not respond so confidently with your opinion.
ROFL, my family is from multiple countries in Europe. I’ve lived in there for multiple years and my wife is from there. I know all about it because I’ve lived it. You’re a fool if you think people can just own homes or build houses there easily. The home ownership is handed down and most live with parents.
Hell it’s not hard to even find this shit out:
“Europe” isn’t just London and Paris. I did some research on real estate in France and Spain recently and it’s significantly cheaper over there if you aren’t living in a major city. Even cheaper than the rural area in the US I currently live in.
No shit…this happens in small towns as well. I would know my family is from multiple countries in Europe.
They’re cheaper sure, but you also make far less than in the USA.
This is literally why housing is so expensive. Local governments (or worse, federal), pass stifling legislation that prevents building, almost always due to localized pressure.
Meanwhile in Russia there is opposite problem: too much housing. And there are a lot of regulations.
And all of those regulations are extractive, but in the opposite direction
Well, I don’t know where you live and maybe in your country nothing is regulated, but I live in Europe and in most European countries there are excessive building regulations which prohibit new developments. This results in severe stock shortage. And shortage drives the prices up. That’s just a fact.
The whole problem is created by the government and they’re the only ones responsible.
“Stock shortage”, lol. Not enough paper being printed causes prices to go up?
I think he meant it as inventory
Ah. Well, we live on different planets. On my planet new appartment costs less than on secondary market. And there is oversupply of housing nobody knows what to do with it.
Dear god you are the poster child for “confidently incorrect”
Are you really that ignorant of the housing market? Zoning regulations are the #1 blocker for new housing being built. More regulation = less housing. Just think about it for half a second.
Also, more housing = lower cost. Supply and demand, dude.
You’re not wrong, but I feel like this is an over generalization. You’re right that the current housing shortage has been caused largely by local regulations. On the other hand, many state legislatures are realizing this fact and working to craft new regulations that loosen and supersede the local ones. E.G Oregon passed a law a few years ago that requires residential areas to be zoned for multi family units in cities over a certain size. I think that kind of law is going to be pretty important to getting the housing situation under control.
That happens only in US. Well, you can say that US is more regulated that EU. And then think about it.
US is actually over regulated in general. It’s just that their regulations are a result of corruption (they call it lobbying) and are tailored towards protecting monopolies and not consumers or competitors.
“Oh no, how terrible”
- C suite looking at all the salary they’re saving
Why would companies that generally avoid owning real estate act against its own self interest for the profits of real estate companies?? I don’t see the connection.
I agree with this, the theory doesn’t track very well unless the executives locked themselves into expensive long term leases for their offices and don’t want to feel embarrassed that it’s a wasted cost.
I think the more likely explanation is that the companies want to drive people into quitting so they can reduce payroll without being on the hook for unemployment insurance.
the executives locked themselves into expensive long term leases for their offices and don’t want to feel embarrassed that it’s a wasted cost.
This is exactly what happened at Alphabet.
That’s false. They were not locked. They publicly announced they paid the fines to end those leases early. I think people are just sharing feelings and not facts here.
Lots of companies and executives invest in real estate. They see their holdings dwindling and decide its time for the unwashed masses to get their asses back in the office
there might be exceptions. but as a rule tech companies AVOID investing in real estate.
Corporations are pushing RTO because their senior leadership doesn’t know how to lead in a modern system.
I won’t argue some amount of “responding to waste” isn’t there, but this “problem” only exists when the culture isn’t healthy enough to be properly managed remotely, which frankly is not that hard.
This has always been the method. I’ve worked in startups for years, and there’s always a game-changing pivot that causes a staff exodus. They replace the with contractors until the company succeeds in the pivot or crashes and burns.
Return to office is just a pivot. If the talent leaves and gets replaced, hopefully their leadership can right the ship. Otherwise it’s those who departed who made the right call.
and pushed the staff turnover rate in my department to 95%. They ended up having to outsource the function to an overseas firm.
Sounds like their reason behind implementing the RTO plan was successful then.
People keep bringing up real estate because everyone thinks the rich are evil and this move must be money related somehow.
Now, I too think they’re pretty rotten for the most part.
But returning to office is not about real estate.
Companies are ruthless and if they can increase profits at all, they will do pretty much anything to do so. Firing long-time workers, destroying the planet, etc. So if they had to destroy the real estate market to make more money, they would.
My point here is that if it was just about money, everyone would remain WFH. They could downsize the office, or even lease out the space to the companies that are returning to the office.
So then why are they doing it? It’s their preference. They prefer having their underlings in the building and enjoy seeing everyone from their corner office. They like feeling powerful which is harder to do when everyone who works for them is at home.
They might also have the kind of personality where they get more work done with others around, and they can’t imagine it being different for other people. Many high-up executives only got that far because they have very extroverted personalities.
Not everything a rich person does is strictly about money. Otherwise they wouldn’t buy mansions, supercars, private planes, etc. Apple wouldn’t have built the billion dollar donut office. They do these things because they’re powerful and want others to know.
Or, it’s a combination of numerous factors, including commercial real estate. There’s no one single explanation that fits for every company reverting WFH.
It’s not commercial real estate. There’s no reason for a CEO to care about real estate. This is just the reason given by people who believe all companies only ever do things for the money. So they’ve made up a reason they think fits.
Offices are cages for humans, no less than that. They want to own us.
maybe they should use teams
I mean, the guy that heads Teams literally said meetings and subsequent overuse of Teams due to ease of making and doing meetings, is a productivity killer.
I agree. The problem is meetings.
The meetings I’m forced to go to at work almost always have nothing to do with my actual job, but do include the owner telling us how much money the company is making in chart and graph form for 20 minutes, which helpfully reminds me that I’m being severely underpaid.
Yes, I am preparing my resume.
And the idiots who schedule many of them…
Sounds like to many meetings. Can’t do work at a meeting.
I can. Have a meeting in Citrix and I happily work while people yabber on in the background.
The real killer is the face to face meetings. My group supervisor now demands anyone in the office on a particular day go into his office for the team meeting. That’s a real time waster.
People online can’t hear us properly standing around in his office. Can’t get work done while standing in there.
Just let me work from home so I don’t have a bunch of people wander over to me to ask stupid questions during the day.
If you want something send me an email and I’ll get to it when I have time. Walking into my space, making me take my noise cancelling headphones off so you can yabber at me and break my concentration is so annoying.
I’m untouchable at home. I work until I need a break, then quickly sort questions and queries, then get back into my groove for another hour or two.
Dang, I just applied to a couple positions there. I’ll go ahead and retract those :D
Someone is getting tired of paying for HVAC, electricity, and plumbing for a vacant office building 😢
That’s how I understood it as well. Feels like most mandates have nothing to do with company culture and more to do with commercial property expenses/investments.
If only they could make a charitable donation to the city, with the expressed purpose that it be converted to affordable housing/homeless shelters for a profitable tax write-off instead.
Sometimes I wonder why these chucklefucks get to play with the big bucks. A good CEO allocates resources well. That’s it. This just screams failure in that department, and soooo many better options exist.
They don’t need to convert it, keep it as office space for a charity or multiple charities, use it as storage for charities, make workshop spaces for low income or unemployed, etc etc etc
Even better resource allocation. I think Zoom might need a new CEO soon. Send HR a link to this thread homie. One of us is sure to land the job.
In some countries you’d get tax breaks for leasing the building to a charity. It’s win win win
