If only we had more warning. Although I guess that’s the plan for after the hurricane comes.

At another, in St. Louis, responders once drafted evacuation plans for fear that the hot temperatures would spark a nuclear disaster at an adjoining landfill with buried radioactive waste near a community that now has dozens of cancer cases.

Turdles all the way down in this country.

I feel you on the misanthropy, and it’s always been a fine line I’ve had an eye on haha. Or as I like to say, my entire life I’ve tried not be a nihilist and after many years of hard work I can finally say that I’m an absurdist.

I’ve got a degree in ecology and evolution, I think about this stuff way too much. I think many of the adaptations that allowed us to get to where we are now are also what will bring about our end. The super organism that is humanity cannot change itself fast enough to recognize our collective power. Or as some have put it, we cannot properly conceptualize exponential growth.

The fact that using reusable bags, again not life altering but insanely simple, is too big of an ask says everything you need to know about our hope of making real change for the future. Actual sacrifice is coming, and we aren’t going to have a choice. If this is too far, then we are well and truly fucked.

As soon as that real change comes, people are going to look to a strongman who can turn it all around. He’s gonna tell them what they are doing isn’t that bad and it’s the mean old scientists that are making life difficult. That and the freeloaders. And those people are going to eat it up. And all of the little environmental improvements that now seem like no big deal but were fought over for years are going to be removed. Asbestos of all things may be deregulated. Sound familiar?

Now for the democrats. Zohran Mamdani is, I would assume, going to have a bag ban as part of his platform if NYC doesn’t do it already. I’m sure Eric Adams will hammer him over it at some point as well. And I am equally sure that there is at least one liberal in that city that is going to say ‘you know what, fuck that, I like my bags, especially those one’s with the handles.’ Will it make a difference? Maybe not, but it still sucks knowing that’s how it is and that’s how it’s gonna be.

Sorry if that went off the rails haha, and I don’t think anything bad about you. But I’m not exaggerating when I say this is why I think we are doomed. I’ll still be using my bag though, which by the way is a fucking rad petrified forest national park one that I’ve used for almost four years now.

You keep bringing up the eating out of the trash can thing. My counter to that is, we throw too much away. That’s another issue we should be working on. I used to live near the Portland Fred Meyer with the famous photo of cops guarding a dumpster because it was filled with unspoiled food during covid.

It isn’t about whether or not I am willing to eat food out of a dumpster (do donuts count?) it’s that we as a society need to all work towards addressing how much food is wasted. There are a multitude of ways in which this can be addressed both on an individual level and on a societal level.

But if you keep wantonly wasting food of your own, because ‘fuck it, have you heard about the time armed police barricaded a dumpster?’ then I’m going to (hopefully politely) spend apparently a full 24 hours pushing the issue of maybe don’t do that.

Again, it’s the same energy as with the bags. It is a trivial step to take. It is easier than continually coming up with reasons to tell a stranger on the internet that you just don’t want to.

And that’s fine. Like you said, we have different ideas of what the line is. We all justify our actions. I do it as well. And we as a species are going to justify ourselves into completing the sixth mass extinction of this planet.

Haha, I’ve had years of practice failing to persuade my father in similar ways for forty years now. I know it changes nothing, but the other option is to not try. I appreciate the support.

It isn’t a different problem set though, just a different flavor of the same issue: over-consumption and overexploitation. It is also something that can be addressed through legislation, as the article this discussion originated from is an article about how legislating bag bans is effective.

People do need to take responsibility. That’s the whole issue. People at the bottom do not take responsibility, they do not push for people above them to take responsibility, and they will actively curtail measures to improve things because ‘it’s the big guys we need to worry about.’ No, we all need to make efforts. And in the example of bags, I am asking you to make a trivial change to your lifestyle, that you would all but forget about once you had made the change.

Let me try to use a different example. Cigarette butts on the ground are fucking gross right? Major ecological concern as well. Nobody should be throwing cigarette butts on the ground, I think we can all agree. You throw a cigarette butt on the ground? No big deal, coal plants are worse. Same energy.

I appreciate the multiple attempts to diffuse with the bag handles, and I fully agree that we have to draw the line somewhere. My issue is that if people are unwilling to do something a simple as bringing a bag into a grocery store, then there is absolutely zero chance that we will change the more difficult but more necessary problems. How are you going to convince Bezos to reduce his footprint when you can’t even get people to stop using a straw? Who the fuck even uses straws? How am I going to convince people to buy less, when everytime they want to buy something, they buy a thing to carry they thing they want to buy? (Insert xzibit meme)

Yes, it is something as dumb as bags, and even if we did switch it may not have much of an impact. But so what? Far more important to me is the mere fact that bringing in a bag to carry items in is too much of a hurdle for people to help the planet? Doomed I say.

Bringing in a bag to store that I know I am going to be bringing items out of is not self-flagellation. Refusing to bring a bag into a store because I’ll just use a single use item instead is shitty behavior. It’s that simple. Minor shitty behavior? Sure. If you’re cool with that behavior, well obviously this isn’t going to change that opinion. It is a trivial behavior for you to change.

I live in a state that has banned the use of them, so no, most people I know don’t use them. The people that said the same thing as you complained for all of a month before they acclimated to a simple fucking task. All parts of our system are fucked, but if it is a trivial matter to unfuck one small part of the system, then we should do that. And then fix the next trivial fucking thing that people say they would rather spend a dollar per bag on and argue for twelve hours about whether or not chopping just 14 million trees per year on top of the other billion trees we chop is all that bad.

This is exactly why I say I have no faith in humanity, your dollar a bag comment says more to how fucked we are than anything. People absolutely will not change. They will literally hurt themselves just so they can hurt the environment because ‘haha, I forget sometimes so I don’t want to try.’ Even when presented with the evidence they ask for on the environmental impacts, they will say ‘worse than I expected, but not that bad when everything else is shit.’ I’m tired of everything being shit. And I’m tired of people saying, oh it’s a just a little shit. Quit accepting shit people. And don’t buy starbucks, because it’s shit coffee from a shit company.

Again, I want to point out this is a minor change that you can make that if everyone did, would have a positive impact in this world. Huge impact, maybe not. But when our entire society is built to destroy the planet that we require for life, we need to remove as many cuts as possible.

I hope this doesn’t come across as rude, but conversations like this one are the reason that I have zero faith in humanity. It’s easy to point fingers as the obvious evil we have going on in the world, which clearly has more of a direct threat. But even if we were somehow able to rid the world of the truly despicable, we’d still be left with a world full of ‘its more of an impact than I thought, but still not so bad’ people. And our planet cannot continue on like that. It absolutely amazes me how many people (including good friends of mine) who think the same way. And there is no way to change this mindset, its as ingrained as any of the bigotry and hate on the other side. We just have no chance against this.

My quick search keeps popping up the statistic of 14 million trees for 10 billion paper bags used annually in the US, but in 1999 so I’m sure that is higher. You’ve also got to consider the high energy usage and large environmental concerns of paper mills. I don’t know if you’ve ever been near a paper mill, but they’re known for their air pollution, they make entire towns stink.

This stat taken from http://www.forestecologynetwork.org/climate_change/plastic_or_paper.html

ENERGY TO PRODUCE BAG ORIGINALLY (BTUs) Safeway Plastic Bags: 594 BTUs Safeway Paper Bags: 2511 BTUs (Source: 1989 Plastic Recycling Directory, Society of Plastics Industry.)

Damn, that hurts me to read haha. Like, I get the absent mindedness thing, but it’s a ridiculously easy step that if all 330 million people in the US (I assume that is also where you are from, sorry if I’m wrong) were to stop then it would actually have a tangible effect on resource consumption. Obviously that isn’t going to solve all of our problems, but the whole idea of ‘whatever, this is slightly more convenient’ should instead be ‘eh, it’s not that much of a hassle.’ I think that’s fully the fault of 100 years of that mindset being pushed down our throats in the form of CONSUME, but we’ve got to break free of it if there’s ever going to be a chance.

Reusable bags. Bonus that you can find something that checks all your boxes and its all yours. Paper bags should be last resort and they should charge 10c to discourage their use.

The amount of 1 day accounts blasting that one ‘retruth’ yesterday… my blocklist grew, that’s for sure.

We’ll get right on it, how’s Tuesday sound?

Absolutely saw that response coming. That’s the thing about bullshit charges, they can always come up with new ones.

Oh no, sounds like I should avoid this reddit you speak of. Any suggestions for alternatives?

I canceled my recurring over this about a week ago, explaining that this was the reason. One of their people sent me a lengthy response that I appreciated. Still going to wait a year before I reinstate it, hopefully they fully move on from this idea by then. It sounded a lot like this though, kinda wishy washy.

I remember when they first got charged and I realized they were real people and it wasn’t a parody reality show. Real terrible people.

They really gave a football jersey with ‘pope leo’ written on it to a guy who has one of the most famously recognizable wardrobes in the world. The inability to read the room still amazes me everytime.